Band self destructed over a tuning dispute

[iansmitchell]

Maybe then it won't be so hard to find bassists Seriously, I tihnk tuning below E is just dumb. E is called standard for a reason. It's like tuning a violin differently. Or a piano. I'm sure it's been done, but instruments are designed to be a certain tuning.

Alternate tunings have been common for violins in the past and are EXTREMELY common for fiddle and folk songs with violin. A piano isn't retuned because it has 11 octaves of play. Middle C could be a G, but you can easily just move your arm. Guitars aren't the same.

And electric guitars are hardly "designed" for a tuning like acoustic instruments are. Mahogany, basswood, alder, maple guitars of different construction, shapes, sizes and scale lengths, by common sense, SHOULDN'T all use one tuning. But lo and behold, it happens.

Read a book.

[iansmitchell]

Maybe then it won't be so hard to find bassists Seriously, I tihnk tuning below E is just dumb. E is called standard for a reason. It's like tuning a violin differently. Or a piano. I'm sure it's been done, but instruments are designed to be a certain tuning.

Alternate tunings have been common for violins in the past and are EXTREMELY common for fiddle and folk songs with violin. A piano isn't retuned because it has 11 octaves of play. Middle C could be a G, but you can easily just move your arm. Guitars aren't the same.

And electric guitars are hardly "designed" for a tuning like acoustic instruments are. Mahogany, basswood, alder, maple guitars of different construction, shapes, sizes and scale lengths, by common sense, SHOULDN'T all use one tuning. But lo and behold, it happens.

Read a book.

[wades_keys]

Mahogany, basswood, alder, maple guitars of different construction, shapes, sizes and scale lengths, by common sense, SHOULDN'T all use one tuning. But lo and behold, it happens.

Just what in the hell are you talking about, exactly?

There's this neat little invention - 34" scale length, still tuned to standard - very thick strings....

It's called an electric bass.

Please show me a song played on electric guitar in B tuning with no distortion - show me what those chords sound like. I bet that major third interval is gonna be mighty dissonant.

There's a reason why only metal bands use these tunings....they sound like {censored}.

[ermghoti II]

George Van Eps created the first 7-string jazz guitar in 1938. He took his beloved Epiphone guitar to the Epiphone factory in New York and had the neck, tailpiece, and bridge replaced to accommodate an extra string, a low A tuned a perfect fifth below the low E string. Thus the seventh string did not alter the standard tuning of the instrument but enhanced it by adding the rich tones of the bass register. The 7th string opened up many opportunities for building walking bass lines while simultaneously comping chords. It also expanded the range of the instrument giving George a richer, fuller sound when playing solo guitar. Van Eps called it his "lap piano".

 

 

I'm sure there are clips around. I have a seven string I never use, I keep meanng to tune it like this and give it another try.

 

http://www.jazzguitarresources.com/guitarists_V.shtml

[wades_keys]

I'm sure there are clips around. I have a seven string I never use, I keep meanng to tune it like this and give it another try. http://www.jazzguitarresources.com/guitarists_V.shtml

 

 

I stand by what I said - Van Eps was not tuning a 6 string to Low B, he just added one thick low string to his standard tuned axe.

 

 

Please show me a song played on electric guitar in B tuning with no distortion - show me what those chords sound like. I bet that major third interval is gonna be mighty dissonant.

 

[Nijyo]

Sure - that would be the point where you are in a band with mature adults that don't pull the BS here. Face it - metal is a genre for the young, and there are plenty of older cats making it work. But none of those cats are pulling {censored} like this - not Kerry King, not even frikkin Mustaine for all of his faults. I don't see Cradle of Filth losing members over tuning disputes either. Then again there's been a ton of well publicized falling out in metal, especially those crazy norwegians. Shuldiner wasn't the easiest guy to get along with either - probably cuz for years he pretty much sucked...(though his playing and recording quality did improve hugely later in life). How's that?

 

I think it depends on what you consider to be "metal" as well (and god am I tired of the proliferation of subgenres these days).

 

I, personally, consider the demarcation line between hard rock and metal to be whether or not it makes people want to dance or mosh. The former, hard rock, the latter, metal. I don't think either is better than the other, or more mature, but at least it allows some sort of discussion that doesn't rely on someone knowing you mean "black metal" instead of "power metal" (etc etc ad nauseum).

 

That said, I don't really think that metal bands fall apart at any greater rate than other young bands. I think its all about the maturity of the musicians (which is marginal at many ages) than the genre they're in. I think we all know how hard it is go get a good band going and keep it going, regardless of the genre we happen to like playing.

 

Y'know?

[Elliott316]

Just what in the hell are you talking about, exactly? There's this neat little invention - 34" scale length, still tuned to standard - very thick strings.... It's called an electric bass. Please show me a song played on electric guitar in B tuning with no distortion - show me what those chords sound like. I bet that major third interval is gonna be mighty dissonant. There's a reason why only metal bands use these tunings....they sound like {censored}.

You should check out bands like Dark New Day. Listen to their acoustic album 'Black Porch Sessions'. They tune to Bb (drop) and I think you would be amazed at how clean and clear it sounds. Their electric album 'Twelve Year Silence' is tuned the same, and the distinction of each string is there.

You should also check out Sevendust (check out the albums 'Animosity' and 'Seasons') I think you might be surprised at what you hear.

I will agree with you that a lot of metal band's sound is muddy. That comes from not knowing how to dial in a good tone.

[GreenAsJade]

 

But none of those cats are pulling {censored} like this - not Kerry King, not even frikkin Mustaine for all of his faults. I don't see Cradle of Filth losing members over tuning disputes either.

 

 

I still think it's a misunderstanding to call it a tuning dispute. It implies the people cared about something different than they really did care about.

 

This is a _sound of the band_ disupte. Some people wanted to sound way low in pitch. The OP wasn't prepared to tune down there and pay the muddy price. That's the dispute. I reckon it's different to someone arguing with someone else about what each string is "tuned to" as if that in itself matters. What mattered to the band was whether they were a low growly tone or not.

 

GaJ

[ermghoti II]

I stand by what I said - Van Eps was not tuning a 6 string to Low B, he just added one thick low string to his standard tuned axe.

 

 

I don't follow. The drop-A downtuners (AFAIK) are using a similar tuning and similar gauges as Van Eps did, except without a high E. The intervals are the same, except the half-step falls between different open strings, or maybe not, I don't know what everybody does. Intonation-wise, there's not a big difference between standard -2 1/2 steps and the bottom six strings in a seven-string tuned to drop A. We're not talking about a 0.042" string tuned to B, or I'm not, at least.

[wades_keys]

 

You should check out bands like Dark New Day. Listen to their acoustic album 'Black Porch Sessions'. They tune to Bb (drop) and I think you would be amazed at how clean and clear it sounds. Their electric album 'Twelve Year Silence' is tuned the same, and the distinction of each string is there. You should also check out Sevendust (check out the albums 'Animosity' and 'Seasons') I think you might be surprised at what you hear. I will agree with you that a lot of metal band's sound is muddy. That comes from not knowing how to dial in a good tone.

 

Yeah, I've definitely heard quite a bit of SevenDust - they're cool for about a minute....

 

Not to diss em, I'm just not much into metal these days and all SevenDust stuff starts to sound the same...

[wades_keys]

I don't follow. The drop-A downtuners (AFAIK) are using a similar tuning and similar gauges as Van Eps did, except without a high E. The intervals are the same, except the half-step falls between different open strings, or maybe not, I don't know what everybody does. Intonation-wise, there's not a big difference between standard -2 1/2 steps and the bottom six strings in a seven-string tuned to drop A. We're not talking about a 0.042" string tuned to B, or I'm not, at least.

 

 

That's all well and good - it still sounds like {censored} to my ears.

 

I'd rather hear Staind or Sevendust if I want to hear deep tuned {censored}e - the bands aren't that great but at least the guitarists get a decent coherent sound.

[HoboMan]

Sounds like it was more of a power struggle than a tuning issue. The other guitarist didn't like not getting his way.

[wades_keys]

Sounds like it was more of a power struggle than a tuning issue. The other guitarist didn't like not getting his way.

 

That's it - happens all the time, in all types of bands.

 

We can probably all learn from this - sometimes it's best to compromise a little and allow for some experimentation; otherwise a firm "no" to an "idea" can turn into what we see here.

[Thrashy]

I see drop tuning used as a crutch by so many hacks and fumble fingered jackasses that it is really an exception if a band sounds good in a low tuning. It doesn't mean that nobody can sound good there. A good musician will still be one no matter what tuning they play in.

I personally think a firm no is the way to go actually. I spent thousands of dollars on my gear, it takes a lot of time to set up a guitar, intonation etc. agree on a tuning at the beginning and if everyone doesn't agree leave it be.

[Elliott316]

I don't follow. The drop-A downtuners (AFAIK) are using a similar tuning and similar gauges as Van Eps did, except without a high E. The intervals are the same, except the half-step falls between different open strings, or maybe not, I don't know what everybody does. Intonation-wise, there's not a big difference between standard -2 1/2 steps and the bottom six strings in a seven-string tuned to drop A. We're not talking about a 0.042" string tuned to B, or I'm not, at least.

 

 

I think you and I are on the same page. I play baritones exclusively in my band. (I can already hear the backlash coming for this next statment) We tune to drop A flat. I pretty much have a standard tuned guitar without the high E, then add a low A, then tune the whole guitar down a half step. My string gauges are 14-72.