Effort needed for originals x covers

[wades_keys]

And apparently more effort to spell its title right. Brian V.

It's not that difficult to spell its title right.

[MusicalSchizo]

I think creating original music is harder than doing covers, but I don't think the comparison is valid because they are two completely different skills.

 

Actually WRITING a song is hard. Recording it effectively can be harder.

 

But if we're talking about performance, solely, and we're comparing what it takes to be an effective contributor to an original project (but NOT the songwriter) and what it takes to be an effective cover band musician, well, for me it's a lot easier to be in the original band, because I can always come up with great complementary ideas for parts and I take direction well from songwriters.

 

Pardon me for making some generalizations, but this is just my experience, speaking solely of rock/pop originals vs. covers:

- Cover bands take more homework and less rehearsal.

- Original bands play shorter sets that need to be tighter than a cover band, so they take less homework and more rehearsal (unless you're playing with a band where everything is meticulously demoed, then it's exactly the same as the cover band)

 

If you're writing and arranging things, that adds a whole new layer of responsibilities that can't be compared to those of the cover band, because with the exception of mashups and re-arrangments/re-imaginings of songs, your road map is there. You know exactly what you need to play and when in the cover band.

 

I imagine learning covers is hard for people with bad ears, but for me it's a piece of cake. So I expend very little effort for my cover band, and it works.

 

When I write a song, it varies - sometimes it takes forever, but usually, when I write, the whole song comes out in one sitting, usually no more than an hour, often much shorter. I usually don't have more time than that to invest in it. I think if I had no family and could spend a whole day working on things I'd spend a lot more time on them. It kind of annoys me that when I had all the time in the world, I didn't have the skill set as a writer and player that I have now. Nor did I have the equipment at my disposal, either.

 

I really want to play my songs for an audience, but I just don't really have the time to get a band together to play them. I was thinking of asking the guys in the cover band to cover some of my tunes (we'd only play them at low-paying bar gigs) so at least they'd have a life outside of my website and computer. My site (linked below) only scratches the surface of my songwriting - I have about 200 songs floating around. I doubt many are all that great, but I don't write music to please others - I write it to amuse myself and because I HAVE to - it's a compulsion.

 

Wow, that was a tangent...uh. Sorry

 

Comparing the two is pointless. How about that?

Brian V.

[BATCAT]

Comparing the two is pointless. How about that?

That is the truth and nothing but the truth.

[theHORSEwhisperer]

I write it to amuse myself and because I HAVE to - it's a compulsion.

[rhat]

Actually WRITING a song is hard. Recording it effectively can be harder.

Never wrote one. I am not sure if its that hard or not. I would think its like anything else. Its a skill set you learn and get good at. I have a friend that is an amazing song writer. I really dont think its that hard for him. The guy has an super understanding of theory. can pretty well transpose any song he knows into multiple keys on the fly.

I never have ask him,,, how did you write this song. I just think he gets an idea and with his ability and background can whip one out pretty fast. Pretty well everything in his songs are things other people can get a bite into and identify with.. As far as getting it out of the studio .... he just uses session guys. He is 53 ,, so it aint his first rodeo so to speak. I think the guy has what it takes to write a hit. He also has the brains to sell it to someone that can make him wealthy. He is an entertainer , singer songwriter,,, and businessman. I have no idea if he has a new CD in the works or not. We did alot of the stuff off his new CD last winter. It was the first time I ever really got a chance to play and get to know a real singer songwriter that really wrote top flight stuff. He plays covers ,, he plays his songs. One thing for sure , when he is on stage. He has the attention of the whole room and makes them feel welcome and can work a room like the full on pro that he is. He writes to a radio friendly format. He is swinging for the fences.

[theHORSEwhisperer]

Rhat, as much as I love reading your absolutely enthralling but completely unrelated life story, I am still wondering what do you mean by "hard songs" and "weak songwriting?" In detail, please.

 

Secondly, how does playing other people's songs improve your ability to write? Again, in detail.

[rhat]

Rhat, as much as I love reading your absolutely enthralling but completely unrelated life story, I am still wondering what do you mean by "hard songs" and "weak songwriting?" In detail, please. Secondly, how does playing other people's songs improve your ability to write? Again, in detail.

 

 

 

Experience. A hard song is one you cant play ,, so you write an original song you can , and think you are a writing wizard. Its kind of like the kid that gets out of college with an aviation degree and thinks his next step is into the left seat of an airliner. There are alot of flying lessons to teach before you will ever sniff the jet A.

[theHORSEwhisperer]

 

Experience. A hard song is one you cant play ,, so you write an original song you can , and think you are a writing wizard. Its kind of like the kid that gets out of college with an aviation degree and thinks his next step is into the left seat of an airliner. There are alot of flying lessons to teach before you will ever sniff the jet A.

 

Oh, I see what you mean.

 

Though mind you some people like minimalistic or simple songs. Music is art, not a contest, nor a journey. There is no requisite skill level nor is there the one true way to do it that you must toil away for years to find yourself upon it.

 

 

There is no right in art, only expressed ideas. The second you stop expression for the sake of fulfilling some strange unspoken standard, you stop playing music and start just making noise to amuse the drunks.

[wades_keys]

Though mind you some people like minimalistic or simple songs. Music is art, not a contest, nor a journey. There is no requisite skill level nor is there the one true way to do it that you must toil away for years to find yourself upon it.

Art without attention to craft yields flimsy, breakable garbage.

 

Witness: The Shaggs, Countless punk bands, (dare i say) The Monkees (guys needed cats behind the curtain playing the instruments)

 

Craft without attention to art yields repetitive, un-inspiring sameness.

 

Somewhere in the middle is the good stuff.

[theHORSEwhisperer]

Art without attention to craft yields flimsy, breakable garbage. Witness: The Shaggs, Countless punk bands, (dare i say) The Monkees (guys needed cats behind the curtain playing the instruments) Craft without attention to art yields repetitive, un-inspiring sameness. Somewhere in the middle is the good stuff.

Well craft and expression do go hand in hand in music. It is impossible to have music without either or else it is just noise.

 

Both are necessary conditions, but neither are sufficient alone.

 

 

Besides all of that, you completely misread my post. It may surprise you to know that you can have a musically valid song that is simple and *gasp* minimalistic.

 

 

 

And besides everything in the musical world, it is all down to personal preference in the end. Again... there is no right, only expressed ideas.

[wades_keys]

Besides all of that, you completely misread my post. It may surprise you to know that you can have a musically valid song that is simple and *gasp* minimalistic.

 

I didn't misread your post and no, I'm not surprised.

 

Songwriting is what it is.

 

Performance is what it is.

 

Compositional elements are what they are.

 

Put it all in a big stew, stay honest with yourself and others....it's all good.

[theHORSEwhisperer]

 

I didn't misread your post and no, I'm not surprised. Songwriting is what it is. Performance is what it is. Compositional elements are what they are. Put it all in a big stew, stay honest with yourself and others....it's all good.

 

Rhat seemed to be promoting form over art, so I was saying that the art is just as important.

 

I wasn't promoting art as being better, just equal to form.

 

 

It seemed you thought that I put art over form, which is why I said you misread my post.

[wades_keys]

Rhat seemed to be promoting form over art, so I was saying that the art is just as important. I wasn't promoting art as being better, just equal to form. It seemed you thought that I put art over form, which is why I said you misread my post.

 

Gravy.

[rhat]

Rhat seemed to be promoting form over art, so I was saying that the art is just as important. I wasn't promoting art as being better, just equal to form. It seemed you thought that I put art over form, which is why I said you misread my post.

 

 

 

art rhymes with fart. It better be a sweet smelling one if you want to sell it. Dont forget tone either ,,,,no squeekers or sneakers ... make it a triple flutter blast

[theHORSEwhisperer]

 

art rhymes with fart. It better be a sweet smelling one if you want to sell it. Dont forget tone either ,,,,no squeekers or sneakers ... make it a triple flutter blast

 

Sadly, I understand what you mean.

[rhat]

Sadly, I understand what you mean.

 

 

 

LOL>....I figured you would.

[faileddrummer]

Originals, without a doubt. Covers are written for you. Word for word, note for note... You learn how to play them.

Originals, you have to come up with. There is no "play this at this time" etc.

I'd post more indepth, but I'm dead {censored}ing tired.

[underground66]

Odd question. I mean odd, in that, how can it poss.ibly be more effort to copy something as opposed to creating something out of nothing. What I mean is, there is no comparison. If you think doing originals is actually easier, then you are not putting in the effort to craft a song. Sure, I can strum a few chords, sing some drivel and say I wrote an original song, but then it needs to go to the band, teach them, hash it out, incorporate the changes, adjust lyrics, tempo, what have you, live with it for awhile, (weeks to months) I mean, jeez, I don't get the debate.

[theHORSEwhisperer]

 

LOL>....I figured you would.

 

Yes, I am awfully strange.

[rhat]

Odd question. I mean odd, in that, how can it poss.ibly be more effort to copy something as opposed to creating something out of nothing. What I mean is, there is no comparison. If you think doing originals is actually easier, then you are not putting in the effort to craft a song. Sure, I can strum a few chords, sing some drivel and say I wrote an original song, but then it needs to go to the band, teach them, hash it out, incorporate the changes, adjust lyrics, tempo, what have you, live with it for awhile, (weeks to months) I mean, jeez, I don't get the debate.

 

 

 

I will assume you play guitar. Go learn a couple chet atkins covers and get back to me on how easy it is,, because all you got to do is copy it. It all depends on what you are trying to cover. Sure you can throw some covers together pretty fast ,, but odds are good that you are gonna have semi winged solos... missing vocal parts and alot of stuff that aint just like the record as they say.

[faileddrummer]

I will assume you play guitar. Go learn a couple chet atkins covers and get back to me on how easy it is,, because all you got to do is copy it. It all depends on what you are trying to cover. Sure you can throw some covers together pretty fast ,, but odds are good that you are gonna have semi winged solos... missing vocal parts and alot of stuff that aint just like the record as they say.

So, you're saying it was easier for Chet Arkins to write the song than it was for you to cover it?

[MusicalSchizo]

 

Odd question. I mean odd, in that, how can it poss.ibly be more effort to copy something as opposed to creating something out of nothing. What I mean is, there is no comparison. If you think doing originals is actually easier, then you are not putting in the effort to craft a song. Sure, I can strum a few chords, sing some drivel and say I wrote an original song, but then it needs to go to the band, teach them, hash it out, incorporate the changes, adjust lyrics, tempo, what have you, live with it for awhile, (weeks to months) I mean, jeez, I don't get the debate.

 

 

This debate is stupid, that's why. Comparing originals to covers is silly, because in this comparison, you're including the composing to simply learning and performing. That's why I tried to break it down and take the composing part out of it.

 

It's like comparing a bicycle to an apple.

 

I will say that in my personal experience, I've known far more half-assed musicians who play in original bands than cover bands, because ANYONE can play like they play and make {censored} up. It takes more homework to learn to be a musical parrot, especially if you're staying true to the original songs.

 

But that's the cool thing. The two are completely complementary!

 

Learn covers and get outside your personal "box" of the things you like to play, and you might find some new things you like to play. As you learn the songs, you learn more about song structure and how to put things together in an appealing manner, plus learning different approaches to the instrument you play can give you new techniques and sounds to exploit in your own music. More tools for the toolbox!

 

I think people with orthodox attitudes against either are foolish, because not all of us have something to say musically as a composer/writer. Some of us just really enjoy playing great songs and being a musician/performer. Some people are composers, some people are musicians. Some are both, but recognizing that it's all music and "music is the best" (as FZ would say) will help us find a little peace and respect for our individual contributions instead of being dogmatic fools.

 

Brian V.

[germs]

I can crank out an original in about a day or so. Start to finish, fills and tracked ready for drums and vox. But that's me. It's how I write.

Covers always posed a challenge to me b/c I don't want to phone it in onstage. I sit and literally obsess over what goes where and what effect is used to get it right. That's why I don't like playing covers anymore.

Now, turning a song around to suit your style better? That's fun to me.

So more effort goes into learning covers.

[rhat]

So, you're saying it was easier for Chet Arkins to write the song than it was for you to cover it?

Go youtube some chet atkins stuff ... you come back and tell us how easy it is to cover. The guy is one of the worlds best guitar players ,, and specialized ic a style called chet atkins style. they dont call it that because everyone can cover it. Its real nitch stuff ,,, for real guitar wonks of the highest ability level. few ever master it. The ones who do spend years not days or hours. You could get through med school faster than you can learn to play like chet.

[underground66]

I will assume you play guitar. Go learn a couple chet atkins covers and get back to me on how easy it is,, because all you got to do is copy it. It all depends on what you are trying to cover. Sure you can throw some covers together pretty fast ,, but odds are good that you are gonna have semi winged solos... missing vocal parts and alot of stuff that aint just like the record as they say.

 

 

Nope. I write lyrics and sing. Sometimes after a melody or rhythm I've written first or maybe off a riff or melody my guitarist brought in. I never said learning a cover was easy. It's not. Certainly not to do it well. What I meant was, and in response to the original post, was that it requires more effort to create an original song than it does to copy one. I don't know Chet Atkins stuff, but yeah, there are a lot of very difficult songs to learn out there. Still, I think that trying to create something entirely new has to require more effort. Maybe it'll be an easier song to play in the end, but the effort expended if you're serious about the craft is going to be more by the very act of having to produce the construction of the piece on your own.