Maintaining volume and energy onstage...

[Mr.Skellington]

Hey, thanks for all of your suggestions!

I think this summs it up:
"Hey, I don't think Status Quo, or Nirvanna, or Tool ever turned it down on stage to accomodate some whimpy PA and a fussy engineer."

My band is very Nirvana/Jane's Addiction'ish. It has to sound huge or it doesn't make sense. There's no way my music could be pulled off correctly with a 10" Combo. That's fine for weddings and corporate gigs and playing in my garage, but if you want to blow somebody's mind I really don't thin that's the amp.

So, I'm looking for the best way to have maximum stage volume with a good FOH mix. It sounds like facing my cabinet across the stage is one thing to try, but also just cranking my amp more and letting the PA handle the vocals.

I listened to the board tape from the show and it's ALL vocal and barely any guitar. I could've moved it from 4 to 8 and STILL had plenty of vocal.

Anyway, thanks for all the info.

[Robin Sengupta]

"I listened to the board tape from the show and it's ALL vocal and barely any guitar. I could've moved it from 4 to 8 and STILL had plenty of vocal." - Mr. Skellington

 

Mr. Skellington - that last comment of yours doesn't actually support your thinking - as I learned a few months ago.

 

In essence - regarding board recordings - the louder the sound source is on stage [i'm guessing your gtr was among the loudest of the sound sources on stage] - the less it needs to be boosted from the board.

The vocals, being inherently soft on stage - have to be really CRANKED at the board to be heard over the gtr in the house.

The levels going into the board tape are based are based on how much each source is cranked at the board. If they had to crank the vocals to get them heard over the rest of the sound - then the vocals would be loud on the board tape.

 

I got a real good explanation of this somewhere in this forum - I'll hunt it out for you if you want . . . but turning your gtr up on stage would probably result in you being EVEN softer on the board tape. It's twisted - but totally logical - twisted logic, if you will.

 

In the house, however - you turn your gtr amp up - you're louder to the ear.

[Mr.Skellington]

I have a board tape which is all drums and vocal, but I also have a DAT from the audience and that's what I was describing above.

The FOH as represented on the tape is ALL vocal. I know that's good for some styles, but NOT for the kind of music I'm doing.

I think that show could've been better if I'd just turned up a bit more than the sound guy wanted and insisted that he take most of the vocal out of the monitors. I know that's an odd request, but I think that would've improved things.

[Mr.Skellington]

Well, there's Zero dough right now, but we had two soundguys respond to an online ad to do sound for us(for free or REAL cheap).
Basically, I just want someone in FOH that knows what I want it to sound like and what I want in my monitors and on stage. One less thing for me to worry about so I can concentrate on being a frontman.
I've had this situation before and it worked out quite good. It's just my first time playing guitar while fronting a band, so that throw's an entire new thing on my plate. That's why I came here for some advice.

I agree with the above advice of getting used to playing in different sounding situations. I actually do that sometimes. It is very helpful.

[Kennykeys]

Let's see, 10 or 15 posts suggesting smaller guitar rig and one suggestion of "{censored} it, crank the stacks" and the kid says "Yeah, that's the answere I was looking for!"
But don't forget, Mark also said you have to have the PA that can handle it (big, real good, expensive), AND you have to be playing the right venue (a real big club, or an extremely loud club, or both.) This will severly limit the number of gigs that you can play.

[Mr.Skellington]

"Let's see, 10 or 15 posts suggesting smaller guitar rig and one suggestion of "{censored} it, crank the stacks" and the kid says "Yeah, that's the answere I was looking for!" "

In a sense, yes. Can you imagine Nirvana playing through a Mesa Boogie Combo with a 10" speaker? It may have sounded better, but it wouldn't have BEEN a better experience.

I've admitted that I'm trying to tread a very thin line here. And I'm specifically outlining the sound I'm going for because your advice would or SHOULD be different if I said my band sound like Phish or Massive Attack or Metallica or Bonnie Raitt.

The sound guy that we would use would be using a clubs system. We're in Los Angeles and the clubs we're playing have pretty good systems. (The Troubadour, Spaceland, etc.)

[waskelton4]

... tidalwave of mud ..

Think i just found our new band name!!

[viilis]

Originally posted by Audiopile My job is to mix them the way they want mixed and bring enough rig to do the job.... and yea that might mean 120dB (or more) at the back wall... and if someone doesn't like it, I refer them to the leader of the band... I'm just doing my job.

 

 

I can respect that viewpoint to a degree. But when FOH volume rises to dangerous levels (like 120db or more at the back wall) somebody

[ffutsratiug]

When I am running sound for other bands in a small venue, I usually recommend that they turn their amps facign across the stage. This way they can have decent stage volume and the P.A. does not have to compete with an amp projecting into the audience. When the amps are setup to project across the stage, the monitor usually only require the vocals.

[viilis]

Originally posted by Audiopile No offence taken.... but being maligned as concentration camp guard seems severe.

 

 

I did not mean to call you a CC guard, it was just a some kind of rhetorical comparison or something... I

[RickJ]

If this sounds familiar, you probably don't sound very good:

Set up your amp along a backline so only you can hear it. Play so loudly that you can't hear anything else. Ask for the other instruments to be turned up very loud in your monitors. Ask for your vocal to be turned up in your monitor.

Now your monitor is so loud that you can't hear your own instrument. Ask for more of it in your monitor. Now you can't hear the other instruments ... the cycle starts over.

By the time its ready to perform, a four-piece band with full monitors is now producing 115 - 120 dB SPL of stage volume. In the audience area with FOH off, the stage volume is nothing more than a cacophonous din.

The FOH mix guy listens to individual mics. The lead vox mic is picking up the whole band at about the same level as it's picking up the singer.

Each of the other singer's mics are picking up the closest backline amp and monitor bleed.

The drum fill is generating so much SPL that all of the drum mics have to be gated. When the gates open, they spurt tinny-sounding mini-mixes of the entire band before the gates close.

It's easy to get 120dB SPL from the FOH, but that's not to say that it will be clear and clean-sounding. After all, it's nothing more than amplified din.

In fact, the entire mix can be clearly heard through the lead vox mic, so why bother micing anything else?

Maybe a kick drum and DI'd bass to the subs for bottom. Yeah, that's all we'll need ...

Play as loud as you want, and blame the sound guy when the place empties out 'cause it's too loud.

[Ultrahighgain]

Originally posted by tlbonehead I believe you stepped in the wrong door. Open jam is that way------->

 

 

 

WTF?

[Mr.Skellington]

Yeah, I was confused by that too.

Which forum should I have posted this in?

[InACanProductions]

Ok, I play in a hardcore/metal band. I'm the lead guitarist but my rhythem guitarist always turns up crazy loud. Our drummer could probably play as loud with brushes as any drummer with a pair of 2Bsticks, he's loud, too loud. So when we set up I try to get the other guitarist to at least match up with me. That lasts the first song or 2, but he's the kind of player who has to hear what he's playing so he turns up. I never end up hearing what I play, even when soloing, and it never seems to be a problem for me. The FOH doesn't suffer unless the club we're at doesn't mic the guitar amps. My tone always sounds how I like it, I always manage to get through the set with no major mistakes. I feel that if you're really serious about your band you should be able to play with out being able to hear yourself. If you know the songs just follow the drums and grit your teeth. I tune between every song when I can't hear my guitar. We're a very energetic band. We're all over the stage, and even out in the audience. We're definately a moshing band, and we'll get out in the pit. I make it a point to get to the back of the room during our set to hear how it sounds out front. If something's wrong I let the sound guy know. I run a Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier with a Marshall 4x12 with the channel gain up about 80%, the channel volume around 40%(60% on the clean channel) and the master volume at half or less. Sounds clear, but heavy as hell. When the guitars aren't miced I some times get drowned out a little. In those cases I use the "solo" function of the amp which adds extra volume when I play leads. I think guitar players should kinda suck it up and learn their parts well enough that they don't HAVE to hear them selves on stage. How many bass players out there can never hear what their playing? Just cause you can get that loud doesn't mean you have to.

I also do freelance sound for a few local clubs, and for High School Battle of the bands and I promote all age shows. I get up on stage before the band gets on and help them set a stage volume. Sometimes they turn up, sometimes they don't, but I at least try to get them a good ballence on stage that's not blairing. Also dealing with kids I think that's where a lot of the "bigger has to be better" school of thinking comes from. The drummers don't know a thing about dynamics, they just "bang on they drum all day." The guitarists all have "More Me" syndrome. Bass players in these young bands all have this idea that tinny bass = clear bass, a lot of them have worse tone than Fieldy of Korn. I've actually heard, "can you take the bass out of my bass." I try to teach them, since they're young, how to achieve better sound for the audience, but some people always think they know better no matter how many people tell them something. When I work with bar bands instead of the kiddies I notice more combo amps, smaller drum sets (more special effect percussion though), and sometimes even electronic drums. I tell the kids that after 10 years giging with that 105lb Marshall cab and their 30lb head a 50lb combo will look real sweet. It's a matter of being taught young that bigger is better coupled with old habbits die hard equaling hard headed, deaf, bands who insist they're sound can't be any better if it's not at 11.

I also think there is little trust for sound men any more. Too many people out there who don't know what they're doing out there calling themselves a sound guy undercutting the pros gives the real sound guys a bad name. Even as a sound guy when I go to a club half the time I don't trust the guy if I never heard him mix. If we're the first band on at a gig at a new venue, I'll be right at the mix desk with my wireless during sound check until I know this guy has our sound right. Maybe more bands should move out front during sound check to hear what it sounds like on the other side of the stage. While you're out there have someone turn down your amp while you play to compair. You might like what you hear. Oh and to comment about Nirvana being a band you have to expierence at loud volumes...any time you expiecenced them(unless you were in seattle in 1990) they were being blasted thorugh giant PA systems in extreamely large venues with thousands of people. Everything you expierenced was through the PA. On stage Kurt's amp could have been turned down to 1 for all you know. There might have been eight 4x12 cabs on stage, but how many were plugged in? Betteryet how many were real? Kurt was always breaking gear, you think they were all real cabs? I don't know if even Nirvana could afford to replace 4 full stacks 300 times a year. Just my 2 cents...actually this was pretty long, that'll be a nickle.

Adios

[waskelton4]

by SpreadTheHate but he's the kind of player who has to hear what he's playing

 

 

Every musician on stage HAS to hear what they are playing. It's a team sport.

[waskelton4]

you also have to know and hear what the rest of your team/band is doing/playing..

[groove.77]

...but you still have to blend and balance with the others.

[InACanProductions]

I can go a whole show with only hearing my drummer. We angle our amps so he can hear (more like feel) a lot of bass, and some of the guitars which is what he's fine with. Generally we can all hear the other guitarist. We can hear the vocals. If I move closer to my amp I can hear myself, but I don't have to hear myself 10dB above everyone else to be able to get through a set. Turning up to outragious volumes under the guise that you have to hear yourself better is pompus. By turning up you make it that much harder for someone else to hear themselves. What gives you the right to do that? Why not try bringing the whole band down a bit and matching eachother then let the PA handle the FOH? And if you can't hear yourself you should still be able to get through the set. When Metallica plays and Kirk Hammet is 50 feet away from his amp, and the clostest monitor is 15feet away you think he cares? He hits his solos no matter what, that's being a professional. That's knowing your material. The whole turning up (when turning up to 10) thing isn't about the player being able to hear themselves, it's about making sure everyone else hears them over the other players. It's about dominating the stage volume. When I play at lower volumes I have to pay more attention to what I'm playing cuz I might not hear the mistake on stage, but the audience will, so I better be on my game. Again, it's my opinion, you've got yours, who's to say yours is any more right than mine and vice versa. Mark is the most dead on, if you plan to play that loud make sure you've got the system to support it, and the right venue and audience that will appreciate it. And if you can't find all those ingrediences then either the sound will suffer, you won't have a place to play, or the crowd won't be there. Them's the breaks. A club won't compromise on how loud they want the band, so the band's gotta compromise if they want to work. That's the real world, if the band don't like it, then open your own club called LOUD WORLD, all loud all the time, BYOEP(bring your own ear plugs).

Adios.

[InACanProductions]

Originally posted by waskelton4 Every musician on stage HAS to hear what they are playing. It's a team sport.

 

 

There's no I in TEAM. Turning up is making your instrument more important than anyone else. And if you know what your fingers are playing why do you have to hear it? It's nice to hear every note I play when I'm on stage, but if I can't hear everything then tough S**T for me. I think it is more important to hear other instruments than my own, and if I turned up then I'm making it harder for the other band members to hear a good blend on stage.

 

Pete Townshed is practially deaf, he still manages to play guitar somehow. I guess when all the guys who have to crank to 10 go deaf they'll just retire from playing since they can't seem to play with the amp any lower.

[Craig Vecchione]

Originally posted by SpreadTheHate There's no I in TEAM. Turning up is making your instrument more important than anyone else. And if you know what your fingers are playing why do you have to hear it? It's nice to hear every note I play when I'm on stage, but if I can't hear everything then tough S**T for me. I think it is more important to hear other instruments than my own, and if I turned up then I'm making it harder for the other band members to hear a good blend on stage. Pete Townshed is practially deaf, he still manages to play guitar somehow. I guess when all the guys who have to crank to 10 go deaf they'll just retire from playing since they can't seem to play with the amp any lower.

 

 

How do you know where you fit dynamically if you can't hear yourself?

[Ultrahighgain]

Maybe I just suck, but I need to hear myself to play guitar.

[viilis]

I think what SpreadTheHate means to say is that sometimes hearing yourself is just not an option. Yes, in any decent venue you should be able to hear yourself. But as we know, the world is full of tiny, acoustically horrible clubs with crappy PA and the bartender doing the sound (when he has time, selling beer is always more important) We

[grimaila]

Originally posted by SpreadTheHate Turning up is making your instrument more important than anyone else.

 

 

Maybe for metal... but I don't think this is true in general.

Loud does not always equal bad, and quiet does not always equal good.

 

The most important thing to me is how balanced the song sounds (if it supposed to be balanced). In the end it is what the crowd hears that is important.

 

Mike

[waskelton4]

if you know what your fingers are playing why do you have to hear it?

IMO, music is way more than just putting your finger on the fret and hitting the string

Didn't mean to start a huge fight over which is better.. loud or not.... i just thought it was a little silly that a musician could be musical without hearing what they were playing

On my first post i by no means ment that you needed to drown out everyone else to hear yourself.. it's all about blending if you ask me..

also.. since my amp is sitting right behind me most of the time and pointing at my ears when i can help it.. i don't need to have it on 10 to hear it over everyone else and it's not overpowering my bass player or leadsinger because of where it's pointed.. i'm not drowning anyone out..

When i'm playing, i like to hear mostly myself (guitar and vocals) and be able to hear the rest of they band so i can play with them and blend dynamically. just because my amp is loud in my ears doesn't necessarily mean that it's blowin everybody on stage away.. however.. this i my preference and i enjoy it when i can get it..

sorry.. didn't mean to come across as such as a$$

will

[OneEng]

I agree that "Powerful" sound is the key. You don't have to have high stage volume to be powerful though. Much of what is perceived to be "Powerful" out front is from the bottom, not from mids and highs.

My bass player has an assortment of speakers and amps he can use. We have tried many combinations, but have settled on 4x10 and a mic into the PA. The PA nicely pushes out a big "Powerful" sound off stage from both the bass and the kick.

Having a 4x12 stack on 10 in THE VAST MAJORITY OF CLUBS would be too loud even without the PA.

If you are playing outdoors with a HUGE PA, you may be able to get some serious volume out of the guitar amp without being obnoxious. If you are playing a stadium it is the same, but most bars????

My suggestion is in-ear monitors for all. Everyone can hear themselves and the rest of the band and the sound guy can mix the FOH with the stage volume being very resaonable. The audience gets a good gig, the bar owner is happy (if there is such a thing as a happy bar owner), and the band members are all happy with what they heard through the gig. Everyone wins.