Getting the best sound out of my powered PA speakers?

[mr2good]

I purchased a pair of ISP Vmax 15's today. I was at the music store and tested them out by plugging a guitar and a microphone into one of them. I scored the pair for $800 shipped thanks to nokingbutchrist, they retail for $999 each brand new, with an $800 a piece street price, so I think I did pretty well. They were selling them so cheap because they aren't an ISP dealer, so the speakers got a used price tag on them because they don't come with the factory warranty, but they are new speakers,

 

I will be using them as foh speakers for our little 4 piece band. Two vocal mics and two acoustic guitars will be run through them. They will be playing over an unmic'd drummer and a bassist that has his own stack. Before we gig out, we will be playing in our warehouse for atleast a couple months. We don't have a mixer yet, and won't get one until we start to gig. Pretty much the only settings on the ISP's are gain per channel. We will be using just the speakers with no mixer while in our warehouse, to save some cash until we really need one.

 

I guess I am asking how important getting a mixer is for playing out at small gigs. Will it improve the sound tremendously over just plugging the guitars and the mics straight into the speakers?

 

I'm brand new to PA, is there any adivce you guys can give me to make sure I don't mess these things up? Its seems pretty simple plug and play to me, but I'm sure there are mistakes that can be made.

 

Thanks for the help,

 

Matt

[abzurd]

Looks like you got a good deal there. Birch boxes, decent power and SPL.

 

The mixer section is pretty primitive, although there are 3 inputs. May be OK for practice, although you might find that the lack of an EQ will mean feedback with the vocal mics. Just don't blow the speakers into the the mics. You may have to experiment with placement to get the most volume out of them before feedback.

 

Now, for gigging, you really want a mixer of some kind. Each channel in the mixer will have an EQ. This will allow you to shape the sound of each instrument so it sounds best. Usually, you then have another EQ (15 or 31 band) that shapes the overall sound. Usually you don't have to do much with this, especially if your speakers have relatively flat response, but different rooms can effect the sound.

 

Pretty much what you hear at practice is what you'll get at a gig so you can be the judge. You're also going to want monitoring of some kind at a gig or you're gonna blow your voice out in short order trying to sing loud enough to hear yourself. Some kind of vocal effects should be there too. Doesn't have to be fancy, but a little bit of reverb will go long way. Vocals loud enough in the mix to "get over" the instruments, but "dry", can be a bit harsh and hard to listen to for hours. A little reverb will "smooth the edges" and allow the voice to blend into the music better.

[Singin' Dave]

IMO, you need a mixer. I would think that each vocalist would need a bit of EQ on their voice, as well you'd want the ability to adjust the levels going into each speaker and add some slight effects. For your purposes, I would think a little cheap-o 6-8 channel passive mixer would be good short term - perhaps even a dreaded Behringer?

[mr2good]

 

Originally posted by Singin' Dave IMO, you need a mixer. I would think that each vocalist would need a bit of EQ on their voice, as well you'd want the ability to adjust the levels going into each speaker and add some slight effects. For your purposes, I would think a little cheap-o 6-8 channel passive mixer would be good short term - perhaps even a dreaded Behringer?

 

 

Thanks for the replies guys.

 

You pretty much nailed it Singin' Dave. Although, we have a pair of community 15" passive PA speakers. If we bought a small powered mixer could we use it to power the communities as monitors and plug the two Vmax's in as foh speakers? That seems like the best solution, let me know if I am on the wrong path with that.

 

Something like a 2x150 watt 6-8 ch. affordable mixer do the trick?

 

Also, I wasn't aware that people EQ there voice. I just started singing 6 months ago and have no experience with microphones. Any advice on that?

 

Thanks again guys!

 

Matt

[Singin' Dave]

Matt,

 

I must admit I'm very new to all this as well, having been bitten by the live sound bug over the past few months. I have found this forum to be very patient with me, so I hope someone more knowledgeable will reply to your post with proper information.

 

At this point, I pretty much run a "PA on a Stick" (powered mixer, passive speakers/monitors with powered sub, so I'm really not too up on how to run powered speakers, particularly with a powered mixer (which I understand is a no-no). There might, however, be a line out/mixer out etc. on a powered mixer which would allow you to do what you are thinking about above..just not sure how much control over your monitors vs. your mains you would have with that set up.

 

From visiting here often and again based on my "take it with a grain" noob-like knowledge, I would suggest that rather than investing in a powered mixer, you buy a passive mixer and separate amp. There are a number of reasons I suggest this. 1) The passive mixer should give you some aux out capabilites to run your monitors via the amp and be able to eq them separately from the mains, which might not be the case with a powered mixer. 2) You also are not dependant on the powered mixer to run your whole rig (i.e. if your powered mixer dies, your in trouble, but with a separate amp and mixer, ytou can get by without the montiors and still control the mains with a passive mixer if needed). 3) A passive mixer will give you much more control over your eq, sends etc..should have many more features and be much lighter to transport 4) A passive mixer and amp will be much harder to outgrow, as you will be able to use the compenents flexibly based on your growth.

 

I'll be interested in the other replies this thread may garner from the vast majority of forumites who know more than I do about how to advise you...

 

Good Luck!

[abzurd]

It comes down to application, budget and how complicated you want it to be.

 

Budget is the limiting factor, but also the easiest to determine. What are you able to spend on the mixer/monitor power?

 

Complication - While a separate mixer and amp doesn't have to be rocket science, they do introduce multiple "things" you'll have to carry around and set up. Is this OK?

 

Application - This is kind of 2 tiered. First is the application of what you'll be using it for now (the mixer for the band and power for monitors). Secondly, it's prudent to think about the future. If you need 6 channels now and buy a 6 channel mixer (powered or passive) will you need to upgrade it within months when you decide you should mic the drums, etc?

 

Now my 2 cents.

 

Cheaper "box type" powered mixers often

 

1) Are shy on power. The 150 or 200 watt rating you see is at 4 ohms. You'll most likely be driving the amp at 8 ohms so you can divide those numbers in half.

 

2) Have only ONE auxiliary out. This means you get ONE monitor mix, bot monitors have the same thing in them)

 

3) Have a pretty rudimentary EQ of only 5 - 9 bands. For monitors, 15 will work OK, but 31 is ideal. You don't use for tone shaping, but rather for feedback elimination. The more bands the narrower a "cut" you can take out of your material. Using EQ allows your monitors to get louder before they feedback.

 

On the plus side, there are some out there with decent power, especially for monitors, and they do have SOME EQ and often on board effects so you do get it all in one package which makes it easy and cheaper than buying separate components that, may be better and give more functionality, but not necessarily needed for your application.

[shortyprs]

 

Originally posted by mr2good Thanks for the replies guys. You pretty much nailed it Singin' Dave. Although, we have a pair of community 15" passive PA speakers. If we bought a small powered mixer could we use it to power the communities as monitors and plug the two Vmax's in as foh speakers? That seems like the best solution, let me know if I am on the wrong path with that. Something like a 2x150 watt 6-8 ch. affordable mixer do the trick? Also, I wasn't aware that people EQ there voice. I just started singing 6 months ago and have no experience with microphones. Any advice on that? Thanks again guys! Matt

 

 

EQ on vocals is critical. It makes a huge difference. I run sound for an open mic coffee house gig. Its amazing how different each singer sounds using the exact same gear.

 

I set up a variety of mics (which have their own EQ characteristics). For people who keep coming back, I've started telling them which mic I want them to use, just so I'm not adjusting the EQ as much, while their trying to perform. Then, I'm slowly adjusting the EQ until their voice sounds right. I don't know how I ever functioned without dual sweepable mids!

[mr2good]

I don't think we are looking to spend a lot of money on the mixer/monitor amp, strictly because we don't have a lot of money after buying the ISP's.

 

Just looking for something that we could use for our jamming and playing small gigs. What are some good options that are affordable? I was thinking something like this: Peavey XR 684F or something similar, without the Peavey price tag.

 

Is it true that it is bad to run powered speakers to a powered mixer? If my Vmax's have a link cable, could I just use one input on the mixer for my FOHs? How many channels will I need if we aren't mic'ing the drums and the bassist has his own stack? Just two acoustics and two vocal mic's will be using through the FOH speakers. Do I need 8 channels or will 6 do?

 

I'm not familiar with amping vocals and acoustics without using a powered mixer, what are some options in terms of using a regular amp with a passive mixer.

 

Thanks for pushing me in the right direction guys!

 

Matt

[abzurd]

I was going to take a look at that Peavey manual, but at 22+ MB (Good grief!) I stopped downloading it.

 

The Peavey price tag isn't really that high in the grand scheme of things. It gets skewed by the dirt cheap crap that's being put out.

 

I'd suggest talking to Mark (Audiopile to HC) about his EWI line of powered mixers. $400 gets you a 10 ch mixer (6 "real" inputs with XLR's and 2 stereo pairs). 250W at 4 ohms which is probably something like 150W at 8. This should suffice for monitors.

 

With this mixer, and many others with same design, you'll actually be using it not quite "traditionally". Since you are going to power monitors with it, you'll use the "monitor send" jack (basically an unpowered line out) to go to your ISP's. Then you'll use the "monitor knob" on the mixer to adjust the output to them.

 

The monitors will actually be controlled with the attenuation on the channel strip AND the balance knob. The balance knob will allow you to get 2 monitor mixes. For instance if, for some reason you don't want the other vocalist in your mix and your monitor is hooked up to the right channel you can pan his channel all the way to the left and only he will get his vocals. More realistically you'd pan his guitar more toward the left side and your guitar more toward the right.

[moody]

If your worried about the peavey price tag then keep saving until you are not.

 

That's the minimum you want to pay for decent quality.

[RainsongDR1000]

Originally posted by abzurd With this mixer, and many others with same design, you'll actually be using it not quite "traditionally". Since you are going to power monitors with it, you'll use the "monitor send" jack (basically an unpowered line out) to go to your ISP's. Then you'll use the "monitor knob" on the mixer to adjust the output to them.

 

I had considered this with my Yorkville MP10DS. if I ever get those more efficient speakers and need more volume than my Yorky can handle I could get a QSC or crown 500x2 power amp and use the actual amp in the powered mixer for running my monitors. BUT... wouldn't that be WITHOUT EQ since I believe running the monitor send is post EQ and effects (I mean the 9 band EQ and effects that comes with the mixer)? How could you use the onboarrd EQ this way? Possibly run a line from the "Main Out" instead of the monitor out so it would include the effects and EQ? Or, I guess, use a seperate EQ and effects?

[abzurd]

I'm guessing it varies by model. It should say in your manual what is "outputted" with the outputs.

[DaBender]

I bought a Soundtech Megamix MM6D in new condition on ebay for $225 a while back. It is a 6 channel powered mixer that will produce 330 watts at 4 ohms or 450 watts at 2 ohms, and it has a very cool routing switch that lets you assign the 9-band graphic and amp to the monitors, while main out would feed your powered speakers. While you can play routing games to achieve the same result with most powered mixers, this is straightforward and retains the true functionality of your channel controls (i.e. the gain still controls the main or foh, and monitor level controls monitor).