Members wheresgrant3 Posted January 16, 2008 Members Share Posted January 16, 2008 Wanted some opinions. I've wriiten in a previous thread about my desire to add some speaker reienforcement to our existing PA... not for additional volume but for better sound dispersion. I wanted other's opinion about speaker path's colliding. Our singer sometimes leads our soundcheck. When he does he usually stands in the middle of the dance floor while our sound guy mixes from side of stage (some rooms there no place to mix in the front, even with a snake). He usually takes it upon himself to turn the FOH tops inward toward the dance floor in an X pattern. The wider the FOH spread the harder the 'X' he forms. He reasoning is that he's providing better converage. My concern is he's creating more harm than good. Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted January 16, 2008 Members Share Posted January 16, 2008 Wanted some opinions. I've wriiten in a previous thread about my desire to add some speaker reienforcement to our existing PA... not for additional volume but for better sound dispersion. I wanted other's opinion about speaker path's colliding. Our singer sometimes leads our soundcheck. When he does he usually stands in the middle of the dance floor while our sound guy mixes from side of stage (some rooms there no place to mix in the front, even with a snake). He usually takes it upon himself to turn the FOH tops inward toward the dance floor in an X pattern. The wider the FOH spread the harder the 'X' he forms. He reasoning is that he's providing better converage. My concern is he's creating more harm than good. Opinions? He probably is creating more harm than good. Many musicians believe presicely what your singer is doing is the best application. After all, studio monitors get pointed in--why not SR speakers? I prefer to set mains (as a general rule with two tops in your setting) about 1/3 the distance of the crowd across(splitting the middle). With speakers in an 'x' pattern, the HF element may eventually present a feedback situation because more sound is arriving (depending on room width) onstage, not to mention a situation most likely worse as far as combing goes... You might try what I suggest and then try the "x" thing... Walk the room and decide which is best. You may not be able to convince him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 17, 2008 Members Share Posted January 17, 2008 Sometimes this is done for very good reason, but without knowing the exact config. and what else is going on in the room, it's all just speculation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted January 17, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 17, 2008 The speaker config are EF500P's and LS800 subs. Cover band situation playing small to medium sized rooms. Average crowd is 100-300 people at a time. We end up crossing the speakers when we have an exceptional large space to cover (banquet hall, out door gig etc). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted January 17, 2008 Members Share Posted January 17, 2008 Type and shape of the room come into play. Is the room wide and short or long and narrow? What are the walls, floor and ceilings made of? Sound will act differently in different rooms so great advice for one room might be poor advice for another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hawkeye Posted January 17, 2008 Members Share Posted January 17, 2008 What you're talking about is "toe-in" which is commonly done in a smaller defined room with the aim of maximizing depth of field in the soundstage. Although a primary goal to achieve good sound in a studio monitoring or consumer application, this is not a primary aim in SR situations. In SR applications, you're talking more about center-fill. The amount to which FOH mains should or should not be toed-in depends on a lot of factors like: - the dispersion characteristics of the particular speaker being used. It's the tweeter that will have the most susceptibility to drop-off outside of the dispersion "cone". Some speakers "beam" more than others. The horn for the high frequency dispersion on one speaker may work better than another. What works well for one set of FOH speakers may not work as well for another set with different drivers and dispersion performance. - how close each speaker is to the side walls. Sometimes you can get a nasty reflection off of a hard surface (like a side-wall) and a little toe-in may help get better articulation by minimizing secondary sources like reflections. - Another way to improve center fill would be just to move the speakers closer together without toe-in. The one third rule is a good place to start. - standing in the middle of the dance floor does not tell you anything about how well you can hear if you're situated near the far ends of the stage or beyond the edges of stage right and stage left. - If you're toe-ing in the speakers a lot to optimize center fill, your far left and far right coverage will likely suffer. Those folks are going to get a lot of stage volume with a sub-optimal mix from the PA. So you end up with "more good" in one part of the room causing "more harm" in the others. - large stages where the FOH mains are physically far apart, you might consider an additional 3rd speaker (mono mix) for the front instead of angling the mains and compromising far side position intelligibility. Do what you have to minimize the compromises. SR is all about managing multiple compromises so that the overall balance doesn't call attention to any one weak point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted January 17, 2008 Members Share Posted January 17, 2008 Optimizing the sound for ONE position is always a bad thing in LIVE sound. Unless the singer is going to place a Lazyboy recliner for the venue owner in that position ;>) Maximizing COVERAGE for the crowd is the goal. EQing for that ONE position means he is directing alterations partly caused by combing problems (constructive/destructive frequency interference), which doesn't work well. That means anyone outside that position will hear a screwed up EQ mix since the EQing was to fix a specific problem zone with no regard for anywhere else. Can I say anymore how bad an idea this procedure is? Yup, but I said enough. OK, I lied. One more thing. You will hear & read of many crapping on using Auto-RTAs to set EQs. It's for the EXACT SAME REASON. A single measurement point fails to allow for combing, reflections and time differences in the mic measurement postion and disregards all other positions! Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted January 17, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 17, 2008 Man! That's why I love coming here. I always get 'sound' advice. Pun intended. I had a previous thread running asking just that.. if we should consider a second pair of tops, or center fill to compliment in large spaces. Sound dispersion- Adding Center Fill Speakers I've heard about using the 1/3 rule. Can someone re-explain. FOH speakers 1/3 the distance from the audience Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted January 17, 2008 Members Share Posted January 17, 2008 The only 1 to 3 "rules" I am aware of is many saying that is the sub power to tops ratio for hard rock/metal/drum&bass, and more importantly, is the microphone makers's recommendation (& most pro sound people) for multiple mics and multiple sources. That's one mic on one source is close and any other mics should be a minimum of 3 times away from that same source to help prevent (OK, lessen a lot) phase & time smearing (also called combing but on the input side vice speaker constructive AND destructive interference) of that particular source. Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jasps Posted January 17, 2008 Members Share Posted January 17, 2008 I've heard about using the 1/3 rule. Can someone re-explain. FOH speakers 1/3 the distance from the audience Depending on the width of the room and pattern of your loudspeakers: Split the coverage area into thirds. You'd put your left speaker on the 1/3 spot and your right speaker on the 2/3 mark. Make sense? Sometimes it doesn't work aesthetically or in terms of coverage, but it is a good place to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 18, 2008 Members Share Posted January 18, 2008 That's splitting the width of the room into thirds... NOT the depth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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