Hooking up a crossover

[hamsack]

ive been reading and picking up alot of great info on here. A lil about me and the setup I use. Im 29(in a few days) and have been helping out several local bands for years lugging equipment around. The vocalist/soundman quit/for the band I was helping and I got called into duty. This was about 9 months ago and so far I havent encountered any major problems. Everyone always said i have an ear for it even before I started. I enjoy working with the bands and have gotten nothin but compliments and not the from the ass type. Actually sincere. So anyway I have gotten comfortable with what i run on a weekly basis. None of the equipment is mine. But im the only one who can set it up and run it lol. For the small bars I set up the mains and one amp

 

Here is what I have

 

Behringer Eurodesk SL2442fx-pro

2 Tops JBL JRX-100

2 Cerwin Vega Earthquake EL-36B

2 Yahmaha tops(not sure what they are since I never use them but may have this weekend)

 

3 Behringer ep2500's

1 Qsc 850(?)Monitor amp

1 Behringer CX3400 Crossover

2 Soundtech wedges

2 yahmah's i use as monitors on occasion

1 Horizon 100ft 16x4 snake

 

 

I think that covers it. Ive never used the crossover but I will need to this weekend as I have a benifit to run with 5 bands. How is the proper way to hook it up? its out of my comfort zone so to speak. Thanks

 

David

[lifeloverwg]

You've never used the crossover? Have you been using the subs and tops together previously or just the tops?

 

Download the manual for the crossover for directions on hooking it up. Your signal path would be; Mixer LR out > crossover inputs, crossover low out > sub amp in, sub amp out > subwoofer cabinets, crossover high outs > tops amp, amp out> top cabinets.

 

I suggest you put one sub on each channel of one EP2500 in stereo mode and engage the 30hz filter. If you start to see the limit light very often you might even want to switch the filter to 50hz. I doubt they are actually doing much below 45hz anyway and that would give you a bit more headroom for kick and bass. One top per side of one amp as well. It's a low budget system so don't expect rock concert results. Red lights are not good.

 

Have fun, Winston.

[hamsack]

 

You've never used the crossover? Have you been using the subs and tops together previously or just the tops? Download the manual for the crossover for directions on hooking it up. Your signal path would be; Mixer LR out > crossover inputs, crossover low out > sub amp in, sub amp out > subwoofer cabinets, crossover high outs > tops amp, amp out> top cabinets. I suggest you put one sub on each channel of one EP2500 in stereo mode and engage the 30hz filter. If you start to see the limit light very often you might even want to switch the filter to 50hz. I doubt they are actually doing much below 45hz anyway and that would give you a bit more headroom for kick and bass. One top per side of one amp as well. It's a low budget system so don't expect rock concert results. Red lights are not good. Have fun, Winston.

 

 

The board has some sort of crossover in it plus effects and all that jazz. Yes I have run the subs but not too often because we usually play small bars/clubs. I bridge the subs when i do use them but never get a real good thump. The sub amp at 30hz. The manual doesnt explain much to me.

[Bryan316]

You'll have to play around with the crossover point, which divides the frequencies between the mains and the subs. It can be anywhere from 80 Hz up to 125 Hz, depending on how good your subs are. They should have their usable low frequencies where it likes to work (CV's site says usable 30 to 300 Hz) and what sounds best to your ear. For most of my heavy metal usage, my rig likes 125Hz. Yours will be different, so play around that area and see where you like it better.

 

Think about how a kick drum should hit in a live concert environment, not necessarily on a CD. Listen for the kick to have a heavy thump, and just enough pop of the beater smacking the head. After that, tweak your bass guitar enough to get a constant rumble, but not mud up the guitars. Yes, we bassists love our rumble, but make sure it's audible where the division between bass and guitar comes. Best example would be In Flames' album Clayman. BEST blend of bass and guitar. As they play separately, sounds distinct and individual. Playing all together, ONE MASSIVE SOUND. I {censored}in love those vikings and their sound engineers, I gotta record an album in the mighty North one day....

[Bryan316]

 

The board has some sort of crossover in it plus effects and all that jazz. Yes I have run the subs but not too often because we usually play small bars/clubs. I bridge the subs when i do use them but never get a real good thump. The sub amp at 30hz. The manual doesnt explain much to me.

 

 

Which manual?

 

Does the board have specific outs for mains and subs? If so, crank that sub amp and get a good feel for how much it really can produce. Get the subs as loud as they can get, then bring up the mains. If the mains need to be louder than they can get, time for new gear.

 

Try to get the subs' output set first, to listen for farting or clipping. Best to do that without music or guitars going yet.

[hamsack]

How is the signal sent off the board. Or would I just come out of the mains L/R from the mixer to the crossover. Then out to the tops and subs. Wouldnt that leave me with the total mix sound on one volume slider?

[hamsack]

 

Which manual?

 

 

the one for the crossover

[Majoria]

The mixer does have "mono output with sweepable low-pass filter for subwoofer application". Thus you may not need the separate crossover unless the built in one isn't adjustable and you don't like the stock adjustment.

[hamsack]

the mixer has mono out with a low pass filter button and a freq knob

[lifeloverwg]

 

The board has some sort of crossover in it plus effects and all that jazz. Yes I have run the subs but not too often because we usually play small bars/clubs. I bridge the subs when i do use them but never get a real good thump. The sub amp at 30hz. The manual doesnt explain much to me.

 

 

OK, the board has a sub out with sweepable filter. This will work, but not as well as a dedicated crossover. The problem is you would still be sending a full range signal to the top cabinets which will just muddy up the low end and waste power that could better go towards letting the tops do their own job.

Bridging the sub amp will give you about 3dB more SPL, but you will also increase your risk of driver failure. I suggest keeping it stereo until you get things dialed in and more experience under your belt. If the subs aren't thumping, look at their placement. Can you put them together in the middle or on one side? You will gain 3dB just by putting them next to each other. Both on one side can work very well in some smaller venues, or you might be able to lay them on their sides with the mouth together in the middle if the stage is high enough. The rule of thumb is to always be less than 3 ft or more than 8 ft from a wall or floor to avoid boundary cancelation. If you can put them right up against the wall you will gain a free 6dB.http://peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/boundarycancellation.cfm

I would also still try engaging the 50hz filter on the amp, you might actually get more thump that way. The Cerwin Vega specs are pretty useless, as they don't tell us any real information. While they claim usable to 30hz, that may very well be the -12dB point and if you are having trouble getting enough thump there is no point wasting amp power on something you can barely hear or feel. The chest hit of the kick drum is up around 75-80hz and even the best 8x10 bass cabinets are dropping off quickly at 45-50hz so most bar bands can get by just fine with subs that roll off at 50hz depending on the genre.

 

Winston

[hamsack]

 

OK, the board has a sub out with sweepable filter. This will work, but not as well as a dedicated crossover. The problem is you would still be sending a full range signal to the top cabinets which will just muddy up the low end and waste power that could better go towards letting the tops do their own job. Bridging the sub amp will give you about 3dB more SPL, but you will also increase your risk of driver failure. I suggest keeping it stereo until you get things dialed in and more experience under your belt. If the subs aren't thumping, look at their placement. Can you put them together in the middle or on one side? You will gain 3dB just by putting them next to each other. Both on one side can work very well in some smaller venues, or you might be able to lay them on their sides with the mouth together in the middle if the stage is high enough. The rule of thumb is to always be less than 3 ft or more than 8 ft from a wall or floor to avoid boundary cancelation. If you can put them right up against the wall you will gain a free 6dB. http://peavey.com/support/technotes/soundsystems/boundarycancellation.cfm I would also still try engaging the 50hz filter on the amp, you might actually get more thump that way. The Cerwin Vega specs are pretty useless, as they don't tell us any real information. While they claim usable to 30hz, that may very well be the -12dB point and if you are having trouble getting enough thump there is no point wasting amp power on something you can barely hear or feel. The chest hit of the kick drum is up around 75-80hz and even the best 8x10 bass cabinets are dropping off quickly at 45-50hz so most bar bands can get by just fine with subs that roll off at 50hz depending on the genre. Winston

 

 

 

So with that said Should i also leave the tops amp at 50hz also... The benifit is an outdoor gig. But oh well. Will I just have control of the board on the main slider for both the subs and tops?

[Unalaska]

The crossover in the board isn't going to help you at all. Don't consider it at all in your setup. You need an electronic crossover post board and EQ (what are you using for an eq?) the crossover to amps. The CV's powered by a 2500 in stereo mode will be fine. Use only 1 set of tops to minimize phase issues.

[hamsack]

 

The crossover in the board isn't going to help you at all. Don't consider it at all in your setup. You need an electronic crossover post board and EQ (what are you using for an eq?) the crossover to amps. The CV's powered by a 2500 in stereo mode will be fine. Use only 1 set of tops to minimize phase issues.

 

 

 

any reason not to bridge

[lifeloverwg]

 

So with that said Should i also leave the tops amp at 50hz also... The benifit is an outdoor gig. But oh well. Will I just have control of the board on the main slider for both the subs and tops?

 

 

Yes, engage the 50hz filter on the tops amp as well. It shouldn't actually be doing anything however as you will be well above that coming out of the crossover but it won't hurt. Start with a crossover setting of 100hz between the subs and tops and then you can play around up or down from there.

 

I don't see any reason to use the sub out on the board if you are using a real crossover instead. (which you should) Just use the LR outs to the crossover. Any balancing of levels needed between tops and subs can be done at the crossover and/or the amps. Make sure you use the low pass filter on every channel but kick, bass, keys and maybe floor tom to help clean up the subs.

 

Give yourself plenty of time getting things set up before the benefit gig. Best would be to set it up in advance and get things worked out before hand, just before a gig is rarely a good time to be implementing new procedures.

 

Winston

[hamsack]

 

Yes, engage the 50hz filter on the tops amp as well. It shouldn't actually be doing anything however as you will be well above that coming out of the crossover but it won't hurt. Start with a crossover setting of 100hz between the subs and tops and then you can play around up or down from there. I don't see any reason to use the sub out on the board if you are using a real crossover instead. (which you should) Just use the LR outs to the crossover. Any balancing of levels needed between tops and subs can be done at the crossover and/or the amps. Make sure you use the low pass filter on every channel but kick, bass, keys and maybe floor tom to help clean up the subs. Give yourself plenty of time getting things set up before the benefit gig. Best would be to set it up in advance and get things worked out before hand, just before a gig is rarely a good time to be implementing new procedures. Winston

 

 

 

thanks I appreciate ya. it is just a lil out of my comfort zone. As i should I learn something new ecery gig.

[cmgunn]

 

any reason not to bridge

 

 

It's easier to blow the subs and the difference will barely be noticeable.

[agedhorse]

It's easier to blow everything and with the questions you are asking, you are definately not a candidate for bridging unless you have plenty of monet for repairs.

[hamsack]

 

It's easier to blow everything and with the questions you are asking, you are definately not a candidate for bridging unless you have plenty of monet for repairs.

 

 

I have run them bridged and have had no problems other than them not pumping as I know they can. Prob because the lack of a actual crossover. In fact the only thing i have had problems with are monitors and thats only been a few times. I do not run everything to the brink. But I am learning as I go. Perhaps I didnt word my questions properly

[lifeloverwg]

I have run them bridged and have had no problems other than them not pumping as I know they can. Prob because the lack of a actual crossover. In fact the only thing i have had problems with are monitors and thats only been a few times. I do not run everything to the brink. But I am learning as I go. Perhaps I didnt word my questions properly

 

While you have run them bridged, that doesn't negate the fact that that is more power than most of us on this forum would feel comfortable having available to them. If you were to have some runaway low frequency feedback occur or just get carried away with the fader in a quest for more thump you will wind up with smoking the drivers. And then, you really will be lacking in pump....

 

You may well just be expecting more than the system is capable of. Take it slow as you continue to learn or pay the price.

 

Good luck, Winston.

[hamsack]

While you have run them bridged, that doesn't negate the fact that that is more power than most of us on this forum would feel comfortable having available to them. If you were to have some runaway low frequency feedback occur or just get carried away with the fader in a quest for more thump you will wind up with smoking the drivers. And then, you really will be lacking in pump.... You may well just be expecting more than the system is capable of. Take it slow as you continue to learn or pay the price. Good luck, Winston.

 

 

thats true. I prob do expect more. I guess I need to step back and reevaluate everything.

[agedhorse]

thats true. I prob do expect more. I guess I need to step back and reevaluate everything.

 

Good idea.