Church PA

[Brain Becker]

We're looking to upgrade our church pa and I need some advice. We currently run 15" Yamaha's and Peavey's on an older Peavey XM-6 powered mixer. We are now wanting to run monitors and we are going to get a 12-16 channel powered mixer and 4 small monitors (as small as possible, we won't need much stage volume) and use the current amp as the monitor amp and run a line out of the powered board to it. Our budget is $750-1500. What would you recommend?

[Craig Vecchione]

Is that budget for mixer, monitors or both? Please don't say "both".

[Brain Becker]

Is that budget for mixer, monitors or both? Please don't say "both".

 

Unfortunately both. We don't have very much money. The equipment isn't going to be top of the line obviously. We don't need high power equipment either because the sanctuary is small.

[1tribe]

EV ZX1's should work great as monitors. Small, light and dont need a lot of power. Mixer wise, take a look at either the Yamaha or Allen & Heath.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

EV ZX1's should work great as monitors. Small, light and dont need a lot of power. Mixer wise, take a look at either the Yamaha or Allen & Heath.

 

 

ZX-1's are nice, but they're $300 each. That leaves $300 for a powered mixer.

 

 

There are few 16 channel powered mixers, and they aren't cheap.

 

The Carvin C1644P is about $1100.

 

Allen & Heath PA-20CP is $1300.

 

Yorkville AP-818 is $1,300.

 

Yamaha EMX5016CF (which is really 12 channels) is about $900.

 

 

There aren't going to be a lot of options for four speakers that are even worth considering if you've got a remaining budget of $200-600. Without EQ, cheap speakers are too peaky, and with EQ, they still can be troublesome. Either way there's no budget for new, but you might find some used bargains in your area.

 

I'd consider getting the Yamaha EMX05015CF, and a pair of Yamaha Club SM10V's. That should slide in right under budget with cables. Get another pair later if more money is available.

[jasps]

We're looking to upgrade our church pa and I need some advice. We currently run 15" Yamaha's and Peavey's on an older Peavey XM-6 powered mixer. We are now wanting to run monitors and we are going to get a 12-16 channel powered mixer and 4 small monitors (as small as possible, we won't need much stage volume) and use the current amp as the monitor amp and run a line out of the powered board to it. Our budget is $750-1500. What would you recommend?

 

 

I recommend waiting and get what you really need later when you can actually spend the necessary $ for a system that will fit your needs. While you can certainly kludge together a system, your current configuration will be difficult to operate and understand for the average voluteer in a church.

 

Google the paper "Why churches buy three sound systems" by Jim Brown. Read it, understand it, and believe it. Do not think you are outside the scope.

 

Best of luck.

Best of luck.

and, before I forget:

Best of luck.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I recommend waiting and get what you really need later when you can actually spend the necessary $ for a system that will fit your needs. While you can certainly kludge together a system, your current configuration will be difficult to operate and understand for the average voluteer in a church. Google the paper "Why churches buy three sound systems" by Jim Brown. Read it, understand it, and believe it. Do not think you are outside the scope. Best of luck. Best of luck. and, before I forget: Best of luck.

 

 

The EMX and pair of Club wedges I suggested gets him well on his way. All he would need to get everything he asked for is another pair of Clubs. He could possibly find 4 of them used within his budget, thought the 10's are relatively rare.

 

There wouldn't be anything confusing about the proposed rig. The EMX powers FOH. The monitor line-out send runs to the "pwr amp in" jack at the lower right corner of the front panel, and that powers his wedges.

[jasps]

The EMX and pair of Club wedges I suggested gets him well on his way. All he would need to get everything he asked for is another pair of Clubs. He could possibly find 4 of them used within his budget, thought the 10's are relatively rare. There wouldn't be anything confusing about the proposed rig. The EMX powers FOH. The monitor line-out send runs to the "pwr amp in" jack at the lower right corner of the front panel, and that powers his wedges.

 

 

Craig, It may not be confusing to you, but I think it is for an average small church sound guy. IME putting together two powered mixers is a bad idea. I've seen and redone several churches with configurations similar. The problem is that most won't understand why there is a second mixer there with nothing plugged in (to the mic inputs).

 

Also, the EMX you referenced has only two auxiliaries and one band of semi parametric EQ/channel. The OP is better off with a seperate mixer + amp and processing. In any event, I think it's very difficult to suggest church sound systems over the internet without having been to the building or service. The smallest churches need the most help.

 

Unfortunately, waiting is the hardest part.

[orbm1]

We're looking to upgrade our church pa and I need some advice. We currently run 15" Yamaha's and Peavey's on an older Peavey XM-6 powered mixer. We are now wanting to run monitors and we are going to get a 12-16 channel powered mixer and 4 small monitors (as small as possible, we won't need much stage volume) and use the current amp as the monitor amp and run a line out of the powered board to it. Our budget is $750-1500. What would you recommend?

I know that this is not the best of the best, but I would go this route:

4 berhiger powered speakers as follows:

2 15 inch woofer active speaker for mains

2 12 inch woofer active speaker for monitors

and, do not buy them from musician friends, go to your local guitar center and negotiate a little bit, you are buying 4 anyways and the shipping most of the times is free from site to store,...

and then, either save a little bit more for a good mixer, get a second hand good one, or go for a nice berhinger....

mackie mixer

berhinger mixer


this is a nice yamaha mixer


and so on....

this set up works well, because you have everything you need, maybe a little money to spare for warranties, and you have an opportunity to grow....

remember to fill the tax exempt form for the church....

hope this helps

Omar

[Dark Ice]

In any event, I think it's very difficult to suggest church sound systems over the internet without having been to the building or service. The smallest churches need the most help.

Honesty, I really, really agree with you on this. But in the real world even well designed systems can end up being an exercise in money down the drain in churches. Trouble is there are too many people 'involved' and will inevitably do things their own way without consultation. Buying the best speakers could still end up with a system that sounds like pap because next thing you know, someones buying a behringer style wireless mic (cos after spending loads on the install they cant justify buying a better mic )with the rejection pattern of a clogged toilet and insisting its placed in front of the speakers for asthetic purposes

At the end of the day, I reckon its often better to leave expectations low and save the church money for more important matters (like getting the buildings wiring checked maybe...). Given operator skill the more expensive system might sound just as good and you have the sting of knowing how much moneys wasted on it

Steve.

[soul-x]

Hmmm... pulls out sharpest pencil:

 

 

 

Qty Description Ea Price

 

4 Audiopile's little 10" plastic box $150 $600

1 Yamaha MG206C mixer $600 $600

1 QSC GX3 $300 $300

------

Total $1500

 

There you go.

16 mic inputs, a couple of channels of power, and a few very small monitors.

[soul-x]

BTW, Brian -- I should mention that you will not be able to run four monitors off your Peavey powered mixer. It is rated for a minimum load of 4 ohms.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Craig, It may not be confusing to you, but I think it is for an average small church sound guy. IME putting together two powered mixers is a bad idea. I've seen and redone several churches with configurations similar. The problem is that most won't understand why there is a second mixer there with nothing plugged in (to the mic inputs). Also, the EMX you referenced has only two auxiliaries and one band of semi parametric EQ/channel. The OP is better off with a seperate mixer + amp and processing. In any event, I think it's very difficult to suggest church sound systems over the internet without having been to the building or service. The smallest churches need the most help. Unfortunately, waiting is the hardest part.

 

 

The OP asked for a specific solution. He wants a 16 channel powered mixer. He wants to use the existing mixer's amp to power monitors. He wants 4 monitors. Rather than going off on twenty tangients that he can't afford, I showed what the costs are, and what he could purchase that does fit the budget and gets him close to where he wants to be.

 

I'm willing to believe he'll be running the system and can figure out how to run one cable and hook it up. If that's too confusing, I really want you to show me how a separate mixer, processing and amps would be easier to follow.

 

 

What mixer are you looking at? It's this one:

 

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetailPF/0,,CNTID%253D450962%2526CTID%253D227800,00.html#

 

You've apparently missed that the EMX has two amps. He can forget the other mixer if it turns out to be too confusing, although I can't imagine someone confused by that being able to handle this or any passive mixer. And he can use the old mixer along with one of the internal amps to have 2 monitor mixes.

 

It has three-band EQ on all channels, with a sweepable mid on 8. I don't know what you mean about it having "one band of semi parametric EQ/channel". You're concerned about two powered mixers being confusing, but expect multiple parametric bands? It has a 9-band graphic EQ, a simple RTA, and a separate feedback suppression system.

 

It has four aux's, not two; 2 switchable pre/post-fader, and 2 post fader. It's got built-in dual effects engines, and 1-knob compression on all of the mono channels.

 

It fits his budget, and meets the requirements he stated. He certainly could wait and get a more expensive solution that may or may not do a better job that this one, or he can get this or something similar and be on his way.

[jasps]

The OP asked for a specific solution. He wants a 16 channel powered mixer. He wants to use the existing mixer's amp to power monitors. He wants 4 monitors. Rather than going off on twenty tangients that he can't afford, I showed what the costs are, and what he could purchase that does fit the budget and gets him close to where he wants to be. I'm willing to believe he'll be running the system and can figure out how to run one cable and hook it up. If that's too confusing, I really want you to show me how a separate mixer, processing and amps would be easier to follow. What mixer are you looking at? It's this one: http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetailPF/0,,CNTID%253D450962%2526CTID%253D227800,00.html# You've apparently missed that the EMX has two amps. He can forget the other mixer if it turns out to be too confusing, although I can't imagine someone confused by that being able to handle this or any passive mixer. And he can use the old mixer along with one of the internal amps to have 2 monitor mixes. It has three-band EQ on all channels, with a sweepable mid on 8. I don't know what you mean about it having "one band of semi parametric EQ/channel". You're concerned about two powered mixers being confusing, but expect multiple parametric bands? It has a 9-band graphic EQ, a simple RTA, and a separate feedback suppression system. It has four aux's, not two; 2 switchable pre/post-fader, and 2 post fader. It's got built-in dual effects engines, and 1-knob compression on all of the mono channels. It fits his budget, and meets the requirements he stated. He certainly could wait and get a more expensive solution that may or may not do a better job that this one, or he can get this or something similar and be on his way.

 

 

Well, I just lost my reply. I was wrong on the four auxes, but only two can be prefade, which is relevant to his monitor situation.

 

I've not missed that the EMX has two amplifiers, were you assuming he could run FOH and monitors on seperate sides of the EMX?

 

I disagree with your tacit assertion that because a specific rubric was defined means that other options and variables shouldn't be considered. I'm urging caution. Many times when one can show church leadership that an increased cash outlay now will save them money later, more funds magically become "available."

[orbm1]

I know that this is not the best of the best, but I would go this route: 4 berhiger powered speakers as follows: 2 15 inch woofer active speaker for mains 2 12 inch woofer active speaker for monitors and, do not buy them from musician friends, go to your local guitar center and negotiate a little bit, you are buying 4 anyways and the shipping most of the times is free from site to store,... and then, either save a little bit more for a good mixer, get a second hand good one, or go for a nice berhinger.... mackie mixer berhinger mixer this is a nice yamaha mixer and so on.... this set up works well, because you have everything you need, maybe a little money to spare for warranties, and you have an opportunity to grow.... remember to fill the tax exempt form for the church.... hope this helps Omar

 

 

 

You know, you are right, I did not notice that he still wanted to use his existing set up and just get more monitors....

 

I would still go the route I suggested, but instead of having two 15's and two 12's i would get them all 12's and use them as the monitors....

 

get the new unpowered mixer, use it to create the mix, send to the new monitors from the monitors out, and the main mix to the old powered mixer and send to the old speakers and use them as mains....

 

still, I this way, he has a nice system for the church and a portable one if an event comes.

 

IMHO

 

Omar

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I disagree with your tacit assertion that because a specific rubric was defined means that other options and variables shouldn't be considered. I'm urging caution. Many times when one can show church leadership that an increased cash outlay now will save them money later, more funds magically become "available."

 

 

No tacit assertion. I never implied there aren't other options. The OP was convincing enough that his budget is fixed, and the space is small, so I showed a few options and suggested he consider (my actual wording) the EMX and some Clubs, since it's a versatile mixer that met his request and budget.

 

If he wants to hire a sound consultant and spend a lot more for a system, of course that's his option. You're certain he falls within the scope of such a need ("Do not think you are outside the scope"), but there's no evidence to support this. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

 

I'm still interested in reading how a single cable and the old powered mixer is more confusing than a completely different passive mixer, processing and amps. If the average church sound guy can be taught how to run that, I'd bet a sticky note on the face of the old Peavey with, "this is being used only as a monitor amp. leave it alone." would be more than enough to clear even the most clouded mind.

[Craig Vecchione]

You know, you are right, I did not notice that he still wanted to use his existing set up and just get more monitors.... I would still go the route I suggested, but instead of having two 15's and two 12's i would get them all 12's and use them as the monitors.... get the new unpowered mixer, use it to create the mix, send to the new monitors from the monitors out, and the main mix to the old powered mixer and send to the old speakers and use them as mains.... still, I this way, he has a nice system for the church and a portable one if an event comes. IMHO Omar

 

Any of these are viable solutions. The old passive mixer is only a 150w amp into 2 FOH speakers, so he'd be better off with all new actives there anyway if it's possible.

 

We don't know what his need is for 4 monitor speakers, so that would be worth clarification.

[Brain Becker]

I appreciate all the help. It does suck that our budget is low, I didn't get to make the rules. I spent about 4500 on my personal pa, but they don't want to use it.

[Brain Becker]

BTW, Brian -- I should mention that you will not be able to run four monitors off your Peavey powered mixer. It is rated for a minimum load of 4 ohms.

 

 

Good eye, I didn't catch that.

[jasps]

No tacit assertion. I never implied there aren't other options. The OP was convincing enough that his budget is fixed, and the space is small, so I showed a few options and suggested he consider (my actual wording) the EMX and some Clubs, since it's a versatile mixer that met his request and budget. I'm still interested in reading how a single cable and the old powered mixer is more confusing than a completely different passive mixer, processing and amps. If the average church sound guy can be taught how to run that, I'd bet a sticky note on the face of the old Peavey with, "this is being used only as a monitor amp. leave it alone." would be more than enough to clear even the most clouded mind.

 

Hey Craigv,

As I wrote before, some will not understand that unused mic inputs on the monitor board/amp have to remain unused. That means two mixers...that means trouble. I have personally seen this done a couple of different times: when the original soundperson leaves or someone else more "qualified" gives their opinion there is often taken for gospel by generally clueless ministers. That is the second sound system. You suggest a note. In an install situation there are steps that can be taken to keep certain gear from being messed with. On a powered board with all of those features it's all right there. With the turnover that can happen in a church or people who have no idea what they're doing (not the OP in this case), with some creativity and ignorance, you would be shocked what people are doing for sound systems in some churches.

 

It isn't that your suggestion was a bad one and I wasn't trying to denigrate what you've suggested. It would probably work fine for right now. I don't think you understand church dynamics, politics, or the variables that are present in church life well. I do think a properly designed and well installed system will last years longer and yes, cost more. We obviously disagree about the route the OP should take, I'm OK with that.

[Craig Vecchione]

Agreed. Sometimes a cigar is used for something unintended. Hey Craigv, As I wrote before, some will not understand that unused mic inputs on the monitor board/amp have to remain unused. That means two mixers...that means trouble. I have personally seen this done a couple of different times: when the original soundperson leaves or someone else more "qualified" gives their opinion there is often taken for gospel by generally clueless ministers. That is the second sound system. You suggest a note. In an install situation there are steps that can be taken to keep certain gear from being messed with. On a powered board with all of those features it's all right there. With the turnover that can happen in a church or people who have no idea what they're doing (not the OP in this case), with some creativity and ignorance, you would be shocked what people are doing for sound systems in some churches. It isn't that your suggestion was a bad one and I wasn't trying to denigrate what you've suggested. It would probably work fine for right now. I don't think you understand church dynamics, politics, or the variables that are present in church life well. I do think a properly designed and well installed system will last years longer and yes, cost more. We obviously disagree about the route the OP should take, I'm OK with that.

 

Why would you assume I don't understand church issues?

 

Regarding the mixer issue; anyone at any time can hose even the most carefully idiot-proofed rig. There's simply no way to prevent that. I've worked most of my two careers troubleshooting the various ways people have screwed the pooch. The bottom line is that whatever system is built, it will be far beyond the capability of 95% of the flock to comprehend. The other 5% will still screw it up. Can't be avoided.

 

So we go back to what the OP requested. I didn't suggest offhand that he use the old mixer...he did. His funds are limited, and it'll get him a second mix. If the price is that some hoser plugs into it and things get weird during that service, that's how it goes. Nobody will die, and The Word will still get out to the people, and that's what's important.

 

If it's really an issue, cover the front with a piece of cardboard, leaving only the master section. Paint it black, and label it "path to purgatory".

[jasps]

...Nobody will die, and The Word will still get out to the people, and that's what's important. If it's really an issue, cover the front with a piece of cardboard, leaving only the master section. Paint it black, and label it "path to purgatory".

True. I'm not going to disagree with that. But Evangelicals don't believe in purgatory.

I just see this stuff happen in churches all the time and I hate the mentality of "getting by." It's because I've worked in churches before that I have this mindset. Anyway, carry on and have a nice day.

[lonotes]

But Evangelicals don't believe in purgatory.

So label it "Use of these controls may lead to dancing".



Oh...wait. That's Southern Baptists. :poke:

[preacherman672]

So label it "Use of these controls may lead to dancing". Oh...wait. That's Southern Baptists. :poke:

 

 

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?sid=b152bedb8e4173b0cbbe77b5a5ff34e1&gid=2221524129

 

:poke::poke: