new amp and mixer advice

[MauiBassPlayer]

Hi all, our 5 piece blues/jazz band is thinking of getting a new amp and mixer. Our speakers we use are as follows:

 

Yamaha Powered 15" subs

JBL MRX 515

Yamaha monitors 12" and 10" 2 each

 

I am looking at he Crown XLS 5000 Power Amp and a Yamaha MG24/14FX 24-Input 14 Bus Mixer with DSP Effects.

 

Any suggestions? We play in front of crowds ranging from 100 up to 300 typically.

[goldenpiggy]

Boy they sure are getting creative these days, calling a 4-bus mixer a 14-bus by including the sends/returns. In any case, sure seems like a lot of mixer for a grand.

 

But I would not depend on its built-in efx unit. IMO you would be better off getting an outboard effects processor. You can pick up something like a used Yamaha REV-500, Lexicon MPX-500 or 550 for around $200. All are great sounding reverbs.

 

I'm assuming you are powering the stage monitors

 

Don't you think the the XLS 5000 is more amp than you need for those MRX cabinets? Nothing wrong with getting it if you have the budget, as it would provide ample power for whatever your needs be in the future. You can save some money and go with the XTi 4000.

 

Do you have a crossover? You might get a smoother sound (less phase cancellation) by crossing over the MRX at say 80Hz since you already have subs.

[agedhorse]

Yes, I would recimmend a smaller amp, something around 400-500 watts max into 8 ohms. Otherwise you would need to setthe ,imiter threshold down which means you wouldn't be using any of the additional power anyway. The XTi 4000 is a big as I would even consider.

[MauiBassPlayer]

Yes, we do plan on using the crown to power the monitors as well. I was thinking that it is better to have the extra power instead of just enough power. I do appreciate your comments. I will look into a separate effects piece, what do I look for in a crossover? The idea is to have all this in a nice rack on wheels.

[MauiBassPlayer]

it says it has a built in crossover

[goldenpiggy]

OK, let me see if I have this right:

 

You plan to run the two MRX boxes in parallel on one channel of the amp, and all four of your monitors are in parallel on the other channel.

 

or

 

You run 2 channel stereo, with 3 speakers on each channel (MRX, 12" monitor, 10" monitor).

 

YIKES!

In the first configuration, it can work (Crown amp will handle 2 Ohm load presented by 4 monitors in parallel, assuming all are 8 Ohms), but each member of your band would be getting the same monitor mix. Is that really what you want? I thought you are buying a new mixer with 6 sends so you can have individual monitor mix. To me that's really important. The drummer wants to hear his hats loud and clear while the singer might not care for that. And for jazz in a small venue of 100-300 people, I think stereo FOH would sound nicer than mono.

 

In the second configuration, I don't recommend that at all. The FOH mix becomes the monitor mix, and vice versa. How are you going to properly adjust the levels and EQ? You're going to be getting everything -- kick, snare, bass, guitar, keys, etc. in your monitors, and the singer won't hear his or her own voice very well. You're also asking for feedback.

 

IMO, you want a minimum of 2 amps, and preferably 3. This allows you to do stereo FOH and two separate monitor mixes (2 amps) or four separate monitor mixes (2 amps). The amps for the monitors don't have to be anything fancy or high power.

 

As for crossover, I'd be looking for: 24dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley topology, which most good crossovers are anyway. Look for adjustable time delay (driver alignment), adjustable input and output level per channel, balanced ins and outs, LF out summation (mono subwoofer out), and mute buttons. I'm a big fan of Rane crossovers, as for me they sound terrific and are very good values.

[goldenpiggy]

I suppose you can use the crossover built into your subs and have that feed your FOH amp. But does it have adjustable crossover freq? You're better off using an outboard active crossover, IMO. Gives you better flexibility. They don't cost that much and will go a long way to making your rig sound good.

[MauiBassPlayer]

So you think two amps is the ticket. We can do that. We have the budget. I was hoping to get the mixer and amps for 2500 or so. What do you think. I respect your knowledge on this. Thanks for helping.

[MauiBassPlayer]

should I be looking at QSC?

[goldenpiggy]

Yeap, definitely two amps. That will give you stereo FOH and two separate monitor mixes -- one for vocals, and one for the musicians.

 

QSC makes fine products. I'm a Crown person, so it's a personal preference. You can't go wrong with either.

 

If you get the Crown Xti 4000, you have about $500 leftover for a second amp. You can pick up the Xti 1000 and still be within budget. Both of these amps have built-in crossovers, so you won't really need an external crossover. They also have built-in EQ which allows you to trim excess low end out of the monitors.

 

Later on if you have the need (and budget), pick up a third Xti 1000 for two more independent monitor mixes. Then everybody will have their own monitor mix.

 

Don't forget to budget couple hundred for a good road case for your mixer.

[MauiBassPlayer]

ok, I am in on the two amps, sounds good, maybe even three. How about this then,

1 - Crown XLS 802D Power Amplifier

2 - Crown Crown XLS 202D Power Amplifier

1 - Allen & Heath ZED-24 Mixer

 

How does this sound?

[gonzobassman]

I like the Allen & Heath mixer,but I think I would go with a QSC PLX1804,and 2 GX-5s,or GX-3s.

[Bugzie]

The Yamaha mixers are decent units. Take a look at the Peavey FX line. The 24 FX has everything the Yamaha has, but the effects are much better IMHO. Also it has a lot of processing built in that comes in handy. Just a suggestion.

[goldenpiggy]

 

ok, I am in on the two amps, sounds good, maybe even three. How about this then, 1 - Crown XLS 802D Power Amplifier 2 - Crown Crown XLS 202D Power Amplifier 1 - Allen & Heath ZED-24 Mixer How does this sound?

 

 

IMO are better off with the XTi series because they have built in speaker processors that does crossover, EQ, low cut, and most importantly, speaker tuning for your MRX cabinets. Although your MRX cabinets are not bi-ampable, the speaker tuning will still optimize the overall freq response, yielding smoother sound. You just need to hook up a laptop or PC to the USB jack and download the MRX speaker tunings one time only. To me that's absolutely worth having.

 

The built-in crossover saves you the expense of getting external crossover. What you can do is take the L/R main outs from your mixer and feed that to both the powered subs and the FOH amp at the same time. Set the low pass on the subs to 100Hz and the crossover point (high pass) on the amp to 90Hz or thereabout. This lets the subs handle the low octaves, and let the MRX handle the mid-bass, mids, and highs. It should sound better, with more definition.

 

I like A&H mixers very much, having used the 24 channel GL2300. They make no-nonsense excellent sounding boards. Unfortunately I am not familiar with ZED-24 model. However, note that it is a stereo (2 bus) mixer, while the Yamaha is a 4 bus. A 4 bus board makes a big difference for live use and future possibilities, so I highly recommend it (esp. if you can afford it.) For example, you can assign all the drum channels to one bus, vocals to the 2nd bus, keyboards to the 3rd, and control the relative levels of the drums, vocals, keys in the main mix without messing with individual channels. You can use sub buses for monitor mixes -- almost like having a dedicated monitor console. It allows a lot more flexibility that a stereo board cannot do. With that, I'd go with Yamaha 4 bus.

 

Of course if your budget is unlimited, go with the A&H GL2400 24 channel board. It's not cheap, but it's a pro-level board that should last you well, close to forever.

[goldenpiggy]

At least get the XTi series for the mains/FOH (for your MRX).

[tsaldana3]

This is what i would suggest.

 

1 QSC GX 5

http://www.zzounds.com/item--QSCGX5

 

2 QSC GX 3's

http://www.zzounds.com/item--QSCGX3

 

That's $1000 in amps. Although you CAN find them cheaper and price match. And that gives you a stereo FOH, although it really doesn't matter alot, and 4 monitor mixes.

 

Now you need a case. Get this one with 10 spaces and casters, 229 with shipping.

http://audiopile.net/products/Cases/RU_series_roadracks/RU_series_cutsheet.htm

 

Now a crossover, DBX 233XL, 180.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--DBX223XL

 

That leaves you with about 1100-1200 for a mixer.

 

And since you listed the MG24/14FX, which only has 16 mic inputs, I would really recommend looking at the Allen Heath Mix Wiz. Even though it doesn't have any bus channels, it's still a GREAT mixer to take into consideration. And it puts you right under your budget.

 

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-ALL-WZ3162DX-LIST

[MauiBassPlayer]

ok, I will look into the QSC, seems like I am getting a lot of positive opinions from everyone on them. How do I hook up 3 amps to a miser anyway?

[goldenpiggy]

Which mixer?

 

stereo/2-bus:

Each channel on the amp(s) used for monitors is fed from the mixer's aux sends, 1 aux send output per amp channel. We'll just call these "sends"

 

Each send is fed by the channels on the mixer which you want to appear in that monitor mix. For example, you might designate send 1 as the vocal monitor mix. Suppose you have 3 vocal mics on channels 1,2,3 of your mixer. You would turn up the send 1 on channel 1,2,3. These adjust the relative levels between the three mics for the send 1. The "master knob" for send 1 controls how loud the vocal monitor is, and is a separate pot/knob. This directly controls the aux send 1 output that drives your amp.

 

four bus:

You can do the above, or you can use the sub bus outs. If using the sub outs (not subwoofer, but rather sub bus), then the "source" for each sub bus can be aux sends, or direct channel assignment. Direct channel assignments are less flexible as on most mixers you can't adjust the relative levels of the channels assigned to the sub bus without messing with the channel faders. I would rather assign a send to a sub bus if you mixer allows. Then you can control each monitor mix level with faders instead of knobs.

[MauiBassPlayer]

Thanks so much goldenpiggy for being so helpful. I think I am leaning towards the Yamaha mixer.

[MauiBassPlayer]

ok, well the QSC amps are less expensive, so that is good for the budget. So here is the line up:

1 QSC GX 5

2 QSC GX 3's

1 DBX 233XL

1 Yamaha MG24/14FX 24-Input 14 Bus Mixer with DSP Effects.

 

This looks like it might be it then. Any other ideas?

[goldenpiggy]

Roundtrip ticket to Maui for goldenpiggy to go set up your system would be nice. Piggy can go economy class.

 

Maui. Some people have all the luck.

 

Seriously, I think you'll do fine with your selection. Don't forget good quality speaker cables (go with locking Speakon connectors on both ends, not 1/4" or banana.) You'll need a few mic (XLR male to XLR female) cables: two from your mixer to your crossover, and four from your crossover to the FOH amp and the subs. For your monitors, you'll not only need XLR to XLR, but 1/4" TRS (stereo plug) to XLR male. This is because the mixer probably doesn't have XLR outs for the sub busses or aux sends. You plug the TRS to XLR male into the mixer, and then use regular mic cables to go to your monitor amps.

 

No need to thank me. You can thank the fine folks on this board. Not only am I new to this board, but I've only been doing live sound for 14 years, and that on a part time basis. This is peanuts compared to seasoned professionals you'll find here.

 

Gumbata ne!

[agedhorse]

I'm headed to Maui next month, and maybe not for work reasons too!!!

 

I think you are headed in the right direction, the GX series amps have the crossovers built in so you don't need an external xover.

[goldenpiggy]

I hear internet will be banned in Maui starting in June. No access to HC board!!! You still want to go?

 

Yeap, some people have all the luck indeed.

 

Have a wonderful trip!

[gonzobassman]

I'm headed to Maui next month, and maybe not for work reasons too!!! I think you are headed in the right direction, the GX series amps have the crossovers built in so you don't need an external xover.

 

This is true,which is why I suggested a PLX 1804 for front of house.Having the DBX 223 XL will lend a little more control IMO.