In-Ear Monitors System The Good, The Bad and the Ugly

[lifeloverwg]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

I hear you, brother! But seriously, is it me or does the seriously low price of the IEM gear I patched together make one giddy? I mean, I am so used to thinking of IEM's as many hundreds of dollars, and perhaps into the thousands, for good quality systems, and that is per IEM station, not even the whole band. I am going to try this setup next weekend at an impromptu gig I booked and will report back on its efficacy. But from everything I have seen, I expect this low dollar "piece-together" to sound better than the wireless systems costing many times as much.

While it will work just fine and it is a lot less money, I don't see why you would expect this low budget option to sound better...... I've been mixing for people using the rolls personal mixer for years, and they have been happy with it, but the band leader at church has recently switched to a Line6 wireless unit and likes it much better than the old wired system. Of course he has new triple driver custom earbuds too.... And, being free to move around has it's benefits.

Good luck with the new gear, it should work fine for you.

[ChiroVette]

 

Originally Posted by lifeloverwg

I don't see why you would expect this low budget option to sound better......

 

Honestly, because I believe wired intrinsically sounds better than wireless. If I did a wireless system on the cheap, I would agree with your premise.

[Art Flood]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Honestly, because I believe wired intrinsically sounds better than wireless. If I did a wireless system on the cheap, I would agree with your premise.

The quality of your earbuds and the skill of the mix engineer will have more impact on the sound quality than whether the connection is wireless or wired.

For my trial runs, wireless and wired sounded the same.

[dboomer]

Originally Posted by Art Flood

For my trial runs, wireless and wired sounded the same.

Wow ... I'd say there is a big difference if your initial sound has much quality to it at all. The only wireless system that I know of that doesn't severely impact the sonic quality of the sound is the Lectrosonics (at about $2400 per unit). It's a digital system and doesn't have and compander gimmick to it. Everything else wireless has a compander. They are basically like the old dolby noise reduction schemes on cassette decks. Yes they keep the noise and hiss down but there is definitely a sonic penalty. Companders have a real big problem handling anything with fast transients.

Listen to something like hi-hats or an acoustic guitar. Analog wireless systems cause a lot of smear to sounds like this. Wires (and digital systems) don't do that.

[Art Flood]

Originally Posted by dboomer

Wow ... I'd say there is a big difference if your initial sound has much quality to it at all. The only wireless system that I know of that doesn't severely impact the sonic quality of the sound is the Lectrosonics (at about $2400 per unit). It's a digital system and doesn't have and compander gimmick to it. Everything else wireless has a compander. They are basically like the old dolby noise reduction schemes on cassette decks. Yes they keep the noise and hiss down but there is definitely a sonic penalty. Companders have a real big problem handling anything with fast transients.

Listen to something like hi-hats or an acoustic guitar. Analog wireless systems cause a lot of smear to sounds like this. Wires (and digital systems) don't do that.

Thanks Don I'll have a listen to hats and acoustic guitar. The trial run was with a rock band with mainly vocals, elec guitar and kick in the mix. I guess we were just so pleased to be able hear the vocals above the instruments that we didn't listen hard enough to the other instruments.

BTW does Line 6 have a wireless IEM in the pipeline?

Cheers

[lifeloverwg]

 

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Honestly, because I believe wired intrinsically sounds better than wireless. If I did a wireless system on the cheap, I would agree with your premise.

 

I'd agree with this with high quality custom molded earbuds, but without really good drivers and a really good seal, I doubt most would hear an improvement in a live situation. I'm still all for your switching and I am a fan of doing things at a cost that makes sense for the situation. It should for sure be a very noticable improvement over low budget wedges.

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by lifeloverwg

I'd agree with this with high quality custom molded earbuds, but without really good drivers and a really good seal, I doubt most would hear an improvement in a live situation. I'm still all for your switching and I am a fan of doing things at a cost that makes sense for the situation. It should for sure be a very noticable improvement over low budget wedges.

I thought I made it clear that the buds I am using and the fact that they are not custom molded are an experiment. And for the record, I happen to think that the Klipsch s4 buds, while only costing $79.99, are an amazing sounding set of buds, with or without custom fitted inserts. I had a pair of Shure buds a while back, they were very high end and they sounded a little better than the S4's but nothing jaw droppingly different. I believe that once you get to a certain level of quality, which the s4's I believe are, then you are paying hundreds of dollars for very small improvements, which is fine and I will do it.

But my main assertion above was NOT factoring in the buds themselves, and in fact I even said as much. I was specifically talking about the price of the Rolls heaphone amp + Elite Core Bodypack + good quality wires compared to the way more expensive wireless systems. If I were to invest into, say a Shure Wireless or Sennheiser for upwards of a grand for each kit, I would still have to buy buds or use my Klipsch s4 to experiment with until I did. So, yeah, as dboomer says, I fully expect the wired system I have to absolutely sound better than all but the most expensive wireless systems. And while this is just a guess, I would even say that with my ear buds, the wired will also sound better than the wireless with better buds.

[Phil Clark]

Originally Posted by OneEng

From a BAND persons perspective:

1. They are lighter than wedges
2. They are quicker to setup than wedges
3. They allow you to hear everything
   
4. You have almost no chance of feedback ever again
5. With the lower stage volume, the FOH mix sounds less muddy .... tighter

There are arguments from many people that they make you feel disconnected/detached. Guitar players gripe that they can't hear "their tone". Drummers and bass players generally like them since they are stunned to be able to finally hear the singer and each other. Singers almost universally love them.

What I have found is that in-ear systems make your band tighter. What you thought sounded so great (when you couldn't really hear the whole band) sometimes sounds like crap when you can hear it so well.

I am glad you said "almost no chance of feedback". Because it is commonly believed that in-ear monitors will eliminate feedback issues in monitors, and that is a blatant misconception. They do dramatically reduce the chance of feedback in the monitors, but I have experienced many a user who likes to keep the ear buds loose, and they turn their head and the bud gets too close to an open and live mic and it squeals. Like any speaker and mic combination, you have to be careful of speaker volume and proximity to a live mic.

[gruven65]

 

Originally Posted by Phil Clark

...I have experienced many a user who likes to keep the ear buds loose, and they turn their head and the bud gets too close to an open and live mic and it squeals. Like any speaker and mic combination, you have to be careful of speaker volume and proximity to a live mic.

 

How loud are they running their in-ears?? I've never even heard of such a thing.

[ChiroVette]

Question: since most people are recommending some sort of a brickwall limiter, I am wondering of there is a reasonably priced single external unit that could be used on multiple sets of wired IEM's with a fast enough attack that it can protect our ears in the event of sudden surges and stuff like that? I know in another thead, the issue came up about the potential problem with the Brickwall limiter that you can apply to the aux sends on the Presonus 24 channel. That issue was that the mixer limiter would obviously not protect us from anything that happened AFTER the mixer, like say a surge in the headphone amp or something.

Is there a rack mount or some such limiter that can be used on several IEM's (wired) simultaneously? I have a show this weekend and I would consider getting it for that gig.

[Miko Man]

Originally Posted by ChiroVette

Question: since most people are recommending some sort of a brickwall limiter, I am wondering of there is a reasonably priced single external unit that could be used on multiple sets of wired IEM's with a fast enough attack that it can protect our ears in the event of sudden surges and stuff like that? I know in another thead, the issue came up about the potential problem with the Brickwall limiter that you can apply to the aux sends on the Presonus 24 channel. That issue was that the mixer limiter would obviously not protect us from anything that happened AFTER the mixer, like say a surge in the headphone amp or something.

Is there a rack mount or some such limiter that can be used on several IEM's (wired) simultaneously? I have a show this weekend and I would consider getting it for that gig.

How many mixes do you have? How many IEM sets do you have? There are multi-channel limiters made. You need a channel of limiter for each channel of mix (at a minimum). Mark C.

[ChiroVette]

 

Originally Posted by Miko Man

How many mixes do you have? How many IEM sets do you have? There are multi-channel limiters made. You need a channel of limiter for each channel of mix (at a minimum). Mark C.

 

Miko, right now, I have two, only because this is an experiment I was able to initiate relatively on the cheap, as I posted above. If it works out then I will end up with at least three, maybe four. I know my drummer and bass player will likely not warm to the idea, which is fine, because I have wedges for them and they don't need a ton of stage volume.

[dboomer]

 

Originally Posted by Phil Clark

I am glad you said "almost no chance of feedback". Because it is commonly believed that in-ear monitors will eliminate feedback issues in monitors, and that is a blatant misconception.

 

Yeah ... if the drummer opens his mouth it's all over

[lonotes]

 

Originally Posted by dboomer

Yeah ... if the drummer opens his mouth it's all over

 

Why? Every drummer that I've ever worked with has had a head of solid stone. No resonant cavity whatsoever.

[Miko Man]

CV, in answer to your question, you can certainly find two channel and four channel limiter/compressors (in 1U space) without looking too hard. Note that a 20:1 compression ratio is functionally a "brickwall" limiter. Mark C.

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by Miko Man

CV, in answer to your question, you can certainly find two channel and four channel limiter/compressors (in 1U space) without looking too hard. Note that a 20:1 compression ratio is functionally a "brickwall" limiter. Mark C.

Cool! I will look around now. Meanwhile, you have any recommendations?

Additionally, assuming this IEM scheme of mine ends up working out this weekend, which I fully expect (okay, hope) that it will, I want to start looking into custom fitted inserts. Where do I start with that? Is this like a mail order thing where someone sends me a pliant rubber insert, I stick it in my ear, and then send it off to have the inserts made for a fee? Or is this something I need to go to an audiologist for?

Also, what brand of buds is highly recommended, ie., great sound, and most bang for the buck? I have seen many people rave about the higher tiered Shure buds. Keep in mind, I am going to be staying with wired, not wireless.

[Miko Man]

In NYC, you might find a used dbx 1046 (four channel) for a good price somewhere. Even a used dbx 266 (two channels) would work, and should be quite cheap. I bought a used 266 last year for $60. I'm sure there are lots of other options too. Mark C.

[lonotes]

 

Originally Posted by Miko Man

In NYC, you might find a used dbx 1046 (four channel) for a good price somewhere. Even a used dbx 266 (two channels) would work, and should be quite cheap. I bought a used 266 last year for $60. I'm sure there are lots of other options too. Mark C.

 

I bought six of the 266XL's earlier this year on ebay. The most expensive was $75, the least expensive went for $30.

[ChiroVette]

Hmmm Actually the 2 channel ones might work out better even if I end up going with, say 4 IEM stations. Because then I can space the two units a little rather than having a tangle of wires all going into one 4-channel unit and then dispersed out to the stage.

I am looking into those now online. Maybe I will call a few music stores and see what I can find here in NYC used.

Thanks!

[Miko Man]

Custom earmolds can be a DIY process, but it's fairly cheap to have done for you. It feels kinda weird; a little cotton ball gets stuffed into ear canal, and then a caulk-like substance gets squirted into you ear. A few minutes for the stuff to cure; then out they come and get mailed off to the manufacturer's lab. For a $20 or so fee, I'd rather have an experienced person do the job. Mark C.

[ChiroVette]

Originally Posted by Miko Man

Custom earmolds can be a DIY process, but it's fairly cheap to have done for you. It feels kinda weird; a little cotton ball gets stuffed into ear canal, and then a caulk-like substance gets squirted into you ear. A few minutes for the stuff to cure; then out they come and get mailed off to the manufacturer's lab. For a $20 or so fee, I'd rather have an experienced person do the job. Mark C.

Agreed.

Not only that, but I am getting older and would like an excuse to have my hearing checked for how much loss there may be. So this would be a great excuse to see and Audiologist. I assume most Audiologists could create the mold?

[Miko Man]

An audiologist or hearing aid dispenser should be able to do it. I've seen it done on-site at motorcycle events, for custom earplugs, just by the vendor. Mark C.

[ChiroVette]

 

Originally Posted by Miko Man

An audiologist or hearing aid dispenser should be able to do it. I've seen it done on-site at motorcycle events, for custom earplugs, just by the vendor. Mark C.

 

Cool. Well if I can get a reasonable rate from an audiologist, I have a few in my area I can make an appointment with. I will make a few calls tomorrow. Thanks!

[lonotes]

When I bought my Westone UM-2's there was a page on Westone's website that listed authorized dealer/audiologists in each state and possibly even by county (old, brain no remember so good no more). I called the one that was closest to me. She was a licensed audiologist, but she did not maintain an office nor a private practice as she was under contract to service the needs of three different county school systems. As a result of not having an office, she made an appointment to come to my home with her testing gizmotron and performed a proper hearing test as well as making the templates for my molds. About two weeks later she came back with the molds to do a final fitting. Total cost for the molds, her time, testing and fitting was $100. IIRC, the UM-2's were just under $300, so the whole package was about $400.

[ChiroVette]

Well, I acid tested the IEM idea and mostly it worked out pretty well, though with some notable issues. First off, though, it is great to have the ability to control my guitar volume into my IEM without effecting the stage volume or house mix. And honestly, even with the relatively low end buds, the sound quality was damned good. As I mentioned, I have a pair of Klipsch s4 buds, and though they are discounted a lot right now on Amazon, those are $80.00 buds normally. I also used Comply Foam Inserts which I ordered specifically for these buds a couple of weeks back. I am not an audiophile, and while I know there is a difference in the quality of these buds versus a pair of $300.00 to $500.00 high end ones, I am definitely NOT feeling like these buds sound skimpy or lame. I bet with custom fitted inserts they would sound amazing.

One problem I faced, however, came in terms of setup time and trying to build so many damned mixes! lol I need to get to gigs early until I get better at setting up gear faster and more efficiently. We ended up starting 20 minutes late. Second problem was that I had absolutely NO concept of my stage volume. My drummer and I are very tight, and even though I am a lead guitarist and singer, he and I work extremely well together and he needs to hear me. The problem is my stage volume was so low he and the bass player were complaining that they couldn't hear me at all it took about 5 songs to dial it in decently, but it ended up being a problem the whole night. I was okay in the house mix...sort of. Though even that became an issue well into the second set. The problem here is that rock bands tend to turn up unconsciously as the second set gets more rocking. You get excited and you start getting louder. The problem was that I had NO IDEA that the band was getting louder, so in the recording I made, my guitar was getting lower and lower (proportional to the other instruments) because I wasn't turning up with the rest of the band. You don't always realize it when the band collectively gets louder because you sort of unconsciously "follow" one another. But I just kept turning myself up in the IEM from the mic stand mounted headphone amp. Another serious problem is that I felt completely disconnected from the band and the crowd. I started removing the buds after every song because I kept wondering why the crowd wasn't applauding. They were, loudly, in fact, but I couldn't hear them with the noise cancelling buds in my ear. I almost don't want custom fitted inserts because I feel this would make this problem even worse.

The feeling of disconnectedness and relative isolation also threw my game off a little musically, because I missed a lot of changes and for some reason that had to do with feeling like I was playing in another zip code or something. I also tend to cue a lot of transitions and changes and had a real hard time with that, making several mis cues and screwing up intros I NEVER screw up. Overall I have mixed feelings about IEM's and it has nothing to do with the quality of the Klisch buds. If I had to live with these buds, I would, no problem.

I know the common wisdom is to get high end buds, and I probably will, but I may have seriously scored on a pair of buds that were dead for the past five years and I just came across them. Way back about 10 years ago I bought a pair of Shure e4c buds. They died on me and I never replaced them. But when I happened to mention the buds to my guitar tech and said it was sad that you couldn't repair buds if the little wire got frayed going into one of the buds, he laughed and said he could fix them. So....now I have a pair of perfectly functioning e4c buds.

Question: How would these buds be with custom fitted inserts? These were around $300.00 to $400.00 (I forget exactly) when I purchased them a while back. Would these be better suited as IEMs than my Klipsch s4's and how would they compare with some of the higher end new buds out now?