JBL MSC1/LSR-Series Speakers: Room Mode Correction System

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by Syncamorea

With the MSC-1 running, do you ever feel that the low end is too lean?

No, it feels like the low end is accurate. This has been verified by checking my mixes on other systems.

I have the opposite problem of most studios - bass buildup instead of bass cancellation. The usual bass problem is mixing too high to compensate for cancellation. I compensated by mixing a bit bass heavy to compensate, but I don't have to do that any more.

Has it had any effect on the listening levels you use while mixing?

No, because it hasn't had that much effect on average listening levels. It's just that the bass is more accurate. I tend to mix at conservative levels anyway, and do reality checks at different levels before signing off.

As usual, great stuff in this review!

[~flipper]

Been trying to calibrate all day; I've seen a huge variety of alerts/fails: Not enough level, speaker imbalance, etc. Usually it's about levels. The low end of the test tone is rattling my teeth and anything in the room that isn't nailed down.

Just a simple audio in/audio out from the laptop. No loopback issues. 36" distance ear-to-speaker and speaker-to-speaker.

Speaker imbalance? I'm using brand new LSR 2328s and an LSR 2310 sub-woofer.

Mac laptop/Mountain Lion, latest firmware/software from JBL.

They say they want the mic pointed "up." What's that? At the ceiling. No diagrams on mic posture. Oops.

Life is too short for this. wished I just grabbed some ancient NS-10s and winged it. Oh well, live and learn (and waste a grand here and there).

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by ~flipper

Been trying to calibrate all day; I've seen a huge variety of alerts/fails: Not enough level, speaker imbalance, etc. Usually it's about levels. The low end of the test tone is rattling my teeth and anything in the room that isn't nailed down.

Don't give up!! You CAN get it to work, and it WILL make a difference. I too went through level issues, but perhaps you missed my comments about what finally worked for me:

The RMC process seems to like loud test tones - I think you need to “activate” the room response to get good results. Running through the JBL LSR2300 speakers (which are very nice speakers, by the way) gave me good, undistorted levels. Although the software recommends a level on their on-screen meter between -20 and -9dB, I’d go for as close to -9dB as possible. I also found that it was possible to raise the level coming out the speakers somewhat with the Input Trim control, and turn down the audio interface input sensitivity a bit further than recommended to compensate, to get good, strong levels.

It was a long time ago that I did the calibration (they're right, once you get it calibrated you don't have to do it again) so I'm a little fuzzy on the details, but it did take a few tries before I was able to get things set properly, and the issues did involve levels. I can't remember exactly what I did with the mic but I might have set it up closer than what was initially recommended.

Also, you probably know this but the room has to be dead quiet when you run the tests. This seems counter-intuitive because you need loud test tones, but I didn't have success until every noise source was vanquished.

I don't know how JBL is on support but give it a shot. If you bought the system from MF, you can always take advantage of the 45-day return policy. But, I just have to say that despite the issues I had setting it up that were documented earlier in this thread regarding software and getting the levels "just right," the effort was worth it. The improvement to the low end is really major.

Take a couple aspirin, get a good night's sleep, and experiment with it a bit more. It CAN work and it makes a big difference.

[~flipper]

Originally Posted by Anderton

Take a couple aspirin, get a good night's sleep, and experiment with it a bit more. It CAN work and it makes a big difference.

Thanks for responding! One of the very few things I've managed to learn over the decades is to give things "another day" and not give up easily.

I did, in fact, read your review and process summary several times. It was very helpful. It's too bad JBL wasn't as careful with their documentation.

One example, from Pg 7 of the 2300 Owners Manual:

Making Sound
After connections are made, reduce the level of the monitor outputs of your console or preamp to minimum and turn on the powered speakers. Then power-up all the audio equipment before powering up the LSR2300 speakers.

Wow! I'm just a guitar player, so I'm probably missing something(s), but that looks, one, like the audio gear has to be powered up in order to reduce output levels, then the speakers need to be powered up, then the audio gear gets powered up (what? again?), then the speakers get powered up (ditto?ditto?).

Is it correct, actually to power-up everything, first, then switch on the speakers? And, when shutting audio gear down (in my case the Mac laptop and/or the Apogee Duet), to switch off speakers and sub-woofer before shutting down/disconnecting gear and/or laptop? Speakers/sub-woofer being always last on/first off, in other words?

The LSR system, previous to the attempted mode correction, sounded awesome. I set off two very loud boom/crack events in a faulty power-down after the tenth unsuccessful calibration effort.

I don't give up, as a rule, and I've never returned gear in my life, so I'll give it another day, and try to re-calibrate when the entire house is empty and quiet, in the early morning, tomorrow.

One other thing about the speaker manual. At one point they say to turn volume, on the speakers, themselves, flat out, and use trim or mixer outs to manage listening levels. At another point (a page or two later?) they say to set the speaker volumes at a normal listening level, and use source gain (or whatever) to manage the levels.

Okay, JBL, ya got me! Any advice on the power-up/-down, and level settings on the backs of the speakers, themselves?

Thanks a million!
Brian

[~flipper]

First, the 2300 Series speakers + sub-woofer sound amazing in here! But the MSC1? No.

I finally was able to get a number of results. "Results" meaning that the software said that the room had been analyzed and corrected successfully.

In 4 separate "results" there were zero frequencies being altered in any way at all. This, in an L-shaped room with glass sliding doors, no sound treatment whatsoever. The results did, however, decide to trim 0.5dB off the left side, and 9.5 dBs off the sub.

Uh, no. The half dB adjustment was inaudible, but the low end clearly dropped out some.

I have zero ill feelings; it's all about live and learn, and trying. But, let's look at this. What are the chances that two, brand new, consecutively numbered 2328s would be out of whack in terms of simple, flat-out level? Not much.

I was put into a case of "who ya gonna believe, me, or your lying ears?" And frankly, I'll take my ears, over a cheap omni mic on an an unbalanced line, any day of the week. My best guess is that I spent the better part of four days, analyzing, and then adjusting for ... the peculiarities of a crappy little microphone.

Personally, I think it's rather funny; hence, the no hard feelings. I mean, even if, on some hypothetical nth "analysis," the MSC had decided that a few freqs needed some cut, why on Earth would I take an anomalous "decision" as being, somehow, gospel, or based in science?

Anyway, Controller returned, full refund; system 2328s and 2310 sounding big and beautiful, and yes, reasonably flat and evenly-balanced.

[Anderton]

Wow...sorry to hear that (the MSC-1, of course, not the speakers!). Interestingly, I also tested my room using the MSC-1 with IK's ARC system. It showed vastly improved low frequency accuracy with the RMC button pushed in, so...

I'm not sure what went wrong with your system and right with mine. I'm glad you have a good attitude about the whole thing and dig the speakers, but it's a shame you didn't get to experience what I experienced with the MSC-1. Live and learn indeed

[Paco572]

I noticed during your RMC calibration you only did the the studio monitors and didn't include the sub in your RMC. Does it make any difference to include the sub or is it fine to exclude the sub from the RMC?

I have the LSR2325 monitors and LSR 2310 sub and I've been unable to RMC the works in one pass due to a volume control issue. (See updated post below) This creates an unbalanced volume between the monitors and sub in which no level of input or output appears to work. I use the Line 6 UX2 and I'm able to RMC the studio monitors but not the sub either with the monitors on or even just the sub by itself. Any suggestions?

Thanks PACO

[Paco572]

*********UPDATE**********I found the problem. I have a completed a successful RMC with sub included.

The low volume on the sub which created all the havoc was due to a switch on the back of the LSR2310 sub. Normal thinking would have you set it to 120hz to get the most volume out it however, at that setting you just can't get enough volume out it, nor can you at 80hz which is even lower to be able to do a successful RMC. There is one other setting on the same switch on the back of LSR2310 called "External". For giggles I tried it and low and behold I suddenly got more volume out of it, Just enough in fact to get a successful studio monitors and sub RMC in a single pass.

My previous explanation regarding the lack there of, of volume control from the big black knob during the RMC process turned out to be false as there is no control there even with just the studio monitors being the only items RMC'd. I don't know why I came up with that, too must testing and not enough sleep I guess. Hence, I have removed that information as it is no longer relevant. I have also updated my tips on this post to include the use of the "External" switch when doing a RMC with studio monitors and sub.

A few little tips in the mean while for those calibrating studio monitors and sub. Set the switch on the back of the sub to "external" you can put it back to 120hz or 80hz later. Most, if not all audio interfaces create a sound card so to speak on your PC. You'll have control over record and playback. Always select 100% for your playback volume, this is OK and select 85% for the *recording" section in windows. Setting record at 100% will cause distortion which will give the dreaded SNR error. Leaving it at 85% helps and leaves you with your output (Windows playback volume) and input trim on the MSC1 and your big black volume knob to set your volumes. You'll want back off your input trim (to keep your signal clean) and increase the volume big black knob until you get it fairly loud so the mic picks up a good sound. It should calibrate after that, might have to play around a little. "Output" (windows playback volume) from the MSC software will back it off or fluctuate automatically during the RCM process so set it 80% in the MSC tone test and leave it. It will adjust itself during the RMC.

Special note when including a sub during a studio monitors and sub combined RMC. JBL recommends to set the volume on all your speakers to 100% This is ok if your just doing monitors only. However, the added volume of the "External" switch on the back of LSR2310 is not all that loud (much better than 120hz or 80hz that's for sure) so you will have to back off your monitors or you'll get that error "Speaker levels are to different". I backed mine off 10 clicks on my LSR2325's from full volume and left the sub a full volume with the switch set to "External" that seemed to work and I didn't get that error message again.

Hope this information helps
Thanks.
PACO

[Anderton]

Unfortunately, I've already returned the speakers so I can't confirm if there's a bug. A subwoofer was indeed sent to me, but then JBL asked me not to use it as it was a prototype and they were doing some tweaks. They sent a production version, but that was pretty much after the review had been finished. I hooked it up to test that the output and crossover worked, and frankly, it didn't occur to me to re-calibrate with the sub in place as I thought the RMC process was for calibrating stereo monitors, and the sub out was for bass management only, not correction.

But...I could very well be wrong (wouldn't be the first time, actually ). I'll be interested to hear what your contacts at JBL have to say about this. If you have trouble getting through, I know some people I can ping as well.

And, thanks for the additional tips on calibration. I'm sure those who have been bedeviled by the calibration process will find that info very helpful.

[Paco572]

If you want to help me, find some someone with a JBL LSR2310 sub and MSC1 to help me confirm my results. Testing will be easy and I'll provide step by step instructions. I need to confirm that's it's not just my setup but a global problem. Many thanks for responding.

PACO
n-Track Forum Admin

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by Paco572

If you want to help me, find some someone with a JBL LSR2310 sub and MSC1 to help me confirm my results. Testing will be easy and I'll provide step by step instructions. I need to confirm that's it's not just my setup but a global problem. Many thanks for responding.

PACO
n-Track Forum Admin

I don't know anyone with that particular gear setup, but I can ping someone at JBL on Monday to see if they have any comments.

[Paco572]

Please read my ********UPDATED*******post above.

Many thanks to all who read it,
Hope the information helps,

PACO
n-track Forum Admin

[djfm1983]

---

Anderton wrote:

The package also comes with a bunch of accessories, as well as software.

 

 I was wondering if you could help me out. I just bought a msc1 at a local pawn shop (for a great price of 85$ I might add) but the only problem is it didn't come with all the cables that are suppose to be included. I was wondering if you could give the cable lengths for the 1/8" to 1/8", the Phono RCA to 1/8" cable and the usb cable. I want to go out and buy the cables I need to set this all up. Any help would be great!

---

 

[patrack]

hello paco 

 

it seem that i have the same problem you had, but my sub (krk 10s) don't have the external option, the crossover is at 120 hs in the max position 

do you have an idea that could help me ? 

 

thanks 

[thedr]

Interestingly' date=' I also tested my room using the MSC-1 with IK's ARC system. It showed vastly improved low frequency accuracy with the RMC button pushed in, so...
/>[/quote']Hi Craig,I have a semi treated room as well and I use ARC2 and like the results. Though I run ARC2 with Audio Hijack so everything on my system runs through it, I love the idea of having it in hardware so I picked up and MSC1. I have a pretty descent setup with a UA Apollo to a Dangerous Dbox to Focal Twins and a Sub 6. I was planning on putting the JBL MSC1 between the Dbox and the Twins and connecting the Sub LFE directly to the MSC1. As an aside, the Twins run a bit too hot and in lieu of attenuation adaptors I was going to use the MSC1 Input Gain to dial these back a bit so I can use the full resolution of the Dbox volume pot as I was planning on using the Dbox for monitor control instead of the JBL volume know. If there are any recommendations on the above let me know. Is this the best way to handle this... for instance should I put the JBL on stun and use the input gain to control the attenuation?Anyway my main question is how did you choose to use MSC1 with ARC? I haven't done any measurements with the MSC1 yet. Did you first do all of your Room Calibration with the MSC1 with the sub and then go into ARC and run that calibration with the MSC1's RMC on? Or did you just run 2 separate tests without any room correction and then just turn them both on? Thanks... and as always, awesome review!

[DwiDrunkParatroop]

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[Mudgel]

I bought a complete set: in 2011 comprising the LSR2328s and the LSR2310 sub and the MSC-1. When I set the system up I did something wrong and blew the MSC1. It was irrepairable and the replacement cost was too much. I hadn't read this review and didn't give any consideration to the Room Correction function. I'd only read that putting the MSC-1 between your sound card outs and your speaker ins effected the sound adversely, so I bought a Presonus Central Station Plus.

 

 

 

All I can say is that the LSR speakers are very nice and I'm more than happy with them.