Today, you are bidding on one key!

[Fluke]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=38071&item=3720017040&rd=1

 

[C. Martin]

Lol:cool:

[gobojacobs]

Originally posted by p120dUdE Lol:cool:

 

seconded.

 

perhaps a stupid question, but i couldn't find mention of what key it was (ie. D, G, and A have the same shape, C and F do, E and B do)... or am i missing something (is there a key/lock or something that it's referencing? or part of the internal action?). actually kind of curious now.

 

i guess anyone who needs it is going to know what they mean. poorly worded ad, anyways. heh.

[Texas Noise Factory]

funny. i wonder which key it is....

 

[Kirumamoru]

Originally posted by gobojacobs perhaps a stupid question, but i couldn't find mention of what key it was (ie. D, G, and A have the same shape, C and F do, E and B do)... or am i missing something (is there a key/lock or something that it's referencing? or part of the internal action?). actually kind of curious now.

Actually, if you look closely, there are no two white keys on the keyboard that look the same. All the black ones should be identical though.

 

Kiru

[gobojacobs]

 

Originally posted by Kirumamoru Actually, if you look closely, there are no two white keys on the keyboard that look the same. All the black ones should be identical though. Kiru

 

 

i'll be damned. i actually think i knew that (at least, you'd think i'd notice after playing for 10+ years). guess i'm the fool, heh.

[Kirumamoru]

Originally posted by gobojacobs i'll be damned. i actually think i knew that (at least, you'd think i'd notice after playing for 10+ years). guess i'm the fool, heh.

Well, it just means that it's an even more critical omission that they won't tell you WHICH key they're selling.

 

Kiru

[Purity_Control]

They're only $10 new from Wine Country (or $7 for black).

 

Anyone remember the April 1 skit that (I think) Future Music did a few years ago with the 1 keyed keyboard for DJs? Novation The Finger or something like that.

[Kirumamoru]

Novation gives us the Finger with the new F-station.

 

Kiru

[grumphh]

Originally posted by Kirumamoru Actually, if you look closely, there are no two white keys on the keyboard that look the same. All the black ones should be identical though. Kiru

You only play one-octave keyboards?

[orangefunk]

 

Originally posted by Kirumamoru Actually, if you look closely, there are no two white keys on the keyboard that look the same. All the black ones should be identical though. Kiru

 

 

Actually F and C are the same so are B and E

 

although this might not be the case on all keyboards it was on my old SY35 among others...

[baldo]

D,G & A are also the same

[noonehere]

This seller is "parting out" lots of different electronics. Sounds to me like he bought a bunch of junk and is selling it in parts. It's not "what key" he is selling. It's "you won - what key do you want?" I betting he is just advertising for those who would e-mail him and say "do you have the XXXX part?" for a side deal. As they say, the parts are usually worth more than the whole....

[orangefunk]

 

Originally posted by baldo D,G & A are also the same

 

 

On my board they're not strangely enough...

[baldo]

u r right. D,G & A are not exactly alike.

 

my mistake.

[Kirumamoru]

Originally posted by grumphh You only play one-octave keyboards?

Lol good point. However, on most keyboards, there are no white keys within the octave that are the same shape. The shaft of the C key is wider than the shaft of the F key, and the shaft of the E key is wider than the B key. The shaft of the D key should also be wider than the shaft of the G and A keys. The difference is slight but present. If there were an irregular keyboard where the C and F keys were the same, and the E and B keys were the same, then the D key would definitely not be the same as the G and A keys.

 

Kiru

[Boom]

Check the feedback, must be a crook.

[orangefunk]

 

Originally posted by Kirumamoru Lol good point. However, on most keyboards, there are no white keys within the octave that are the same shape. The shaft of the C key is wider than the shaft of the F key, and the shaft of the E key is wider than the B key. The shaft of the D key should also be wider than the shaft of the G and A keys. The difference is slight but present. If there were an irregular keyboard where the C and F keys were the same, and the E and B keys were the same, then the D key would definitely not be the same as the G and A keys. Kiru

 

 

On my Motif 7 they look the same, having taken apart my JX10 and SY35 and seen underneath that they say F/C on the key itself I can assure you that *most* keyboards doesn't sound very authorative...

[Kirumamoru]

 

Originally posted by orangefunk On my Motif 7 they look the same, having taken apart my JX10 and SY35 and seen underneath that they say F/C on the key itself I can assure you that *most* keyboards doesn't sound very authorative...

 

On my Motif ES 7 they are NOT the same. Close, but no. If ''most keyboards'' doesn't sound ''authorative'' to you, then let me rephrase.

 

The standard piano keyboard is designed to minimize the differences between the keys. It is not possible to give all 12 keys in the chromatic scale an identical shaft width (key width on the black keys), so some compromises must be made. The reason for this is that you have five keys (C, C#, D, Eb, and E) that have to fit into the width of the ends of three white keys, and seven keys (F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, and B) that have to fit into the width of four white keys. As you can easily see, the average width of the black key or white key shaft is going to be different for the two sets of keys: 3/5ths (0.60) the width of the end of a white key, and 4/7ths (0.57) the width of a white key.

 

Yes, I am disregarding the gaps between the keys. They are generally uniform. Think of any measurements as including the actual key plus whatever space is adjacent to it on one side or the other.

 

0.6 and 0.57 don't seem like much of a difference, but keep in mind here that black keys are in fact uniform in width. On my P-250, the space between the left edge of a black key and the left edge of the next-highest white key is the same as the space between the left edge of the F, G, A, and B keys and the left edge of the next highest white key. Therefore, the best compromise width of the shafts of the C, D, and E keys is in fact (3 - 2x0.57)/3, or 0.62 times the width of the end of a white key.

 

Notice, then, the discrepancy between the C key and the F key, for instance. While they both have the over-all streched-'L' shape, the width of the shaft of the C key is .62 the width of its end, while, the width of the shaft of the F key is only 0.57 the width of its end. That does, of course, include the gap to the left of the key, as well as the physical length of the key. The TOTAL width of the keys in the octave from C to B is 6.5 inches, so the width of the end of any white key (plus adjacent gap) is 14.85/16ths of an inch. Therefore, the shaft of the C key (plus adjacent gap) is 9.21/16ths of an inch, and the shaft of the F key (plus adjacent gap) is 8.47/16ths of an inch. By extention, the E and B keys are also not the same, and the D key is not the same as the G and A keys.

 

Since the black keys and white key shafts are spaced and sized equally along the span of keys from F to B, it is easy to demonstrate that the G and A keys are also not the same shape. Consider that half of Ab comes out of both G and A, taking up 0.285 the width of the end of those keys. G and A both have a key shaft of .57 themselves. The remaining width on either side (the left of the G, and the right of the A) is only .145. Therefore, while G and A are mirror images of each other, they are NOT the same shape.

 

This is the most balanced and visually appealing keyboard that you can possibly make. Now, there are exceptions to this, which I will discuss next.

 

Kiru

[Kirumamoru]

Continuing from the previous post, where I discussed the most ideal keyboard arrangement, I will now talk about possible exceptions.

 

Just because the above arrangement is the ''best'' and most visually appealing doesn't mean that you can't design a keyboard differently. It is possible to make a keyboard where C and F are the same, and E and B are the same, and even D, G, and A are the same. However, you will have to make compromises which will affect, at the very least, the visual appeal of the keyboard, and may in fact affect playability.

 

Possibly the best compromise keyboard is one where the C# and Eb keys are moved outwards so that they sit in the same relationship that the C and E keys as the F# and Bb keys have with the F and B keys. Or, to say that more plainly, the C key is the same shape as the F key and the E key is the same shape as the B key. Keep the black keys the same width. This results in a D key with an extra wide shaft, since you stretched the two adjacent black keys outwards. This does NOT result in an arrangement with the D, G, and A keys being identical.

 

If this isn't compromise enough, and you must have identical D, G, and A keys, you must make some significant alterations to your original assumtions. Specifically, you must make the black keys narrower in width than any of the white keys, or else make the gap between black keys so small that most people's fingers won't fit. The reason for this is pretty straightforward. I will deal first with the case where you leave the black keys the same size and only adjust the shafts of the white keys, and then discuss altering the black keys.

 

If you want D, G, and A to be the same shape, and interchangeable, you start by moving the F# and Bb keys towards each other until the G and A keys are symmetrical. Then change the C and C# keys so that they are the same as the F and F# keys, and change the Eb and E keys so that they are the same as the Bb and B keys. There are two problems with this solution, only one of which is fixable. The first is that it looks really bad. The second is that including the gaps on both sides of the D, G, and A keys, the width of gap between any two adjacent black keys is well under half an inch (six or seven sixteenths of an inch). The width of my index finger halfway between the tip and the outermost joint is 5/8ths (10/16ths) of an inch, and I have relatively narrow fingers for a guy (especally one my size). This digit barely squeezes beween two black keys on the ''ideal'' piano keyboard. Basically, you've ''taken your two halves out of the middle'', so to speak.

 

I noted in the above post that the width between the F# and Ab or the Ab and Bb keys is 8.47/16ths of an inch, which in practice works out to about 10/16ths (5/8ths) on an inch, which is good for me and my index finger. If we assume that this is really the narrowest practical gap between two black keys, we can shrink down the black keys so that we still have identical D, G, and A keys. This will result in very narrow black keys... essentially we are now ''taking our middle out of the two halves''. This fixes the problem of not being able to fit your finger between the key, but unfortunately it cannot change the fact that the keyboard still looks really dumb.

 

I realize that numbers don't really illustrate the point that I'm trying to make here very well. So, in my next post, I will post some pictures of these differing key configurations.

 

Kiru

[Kirumamoru]

Fortunately, I have a very nice keyboard graphic from when I designed the DX9000, so providing these illustrations was pretty easy. You'll maybe notice that a few of the gaps are a pixel wider than others. This is due to limitations of the medium, so to speak, and also due to the fact that when I put this together I was working in metric; two pixels equals a millimeter.

 

 

First of all, the ideal keyboard is presented.

 

 

This is essentially the keyboard that you will find on most of today's modern synthesizers. The Motif and the Motif ES 61- and 76-key keyboards look pretty much like this, as well the keyboards on the Tritons (and presumably the Fantoms). The difference between this and an actual piano keyboard (or a digital piano keyboard) is that the gaps between keys are a little smaller, and the keys are squarer.

 

You may or may not look at this first image and think, as I do, that ''this looks right''. If you have a piano training (which I really don't, but that's not the point) this will probably be your reaction.

 

 

Here is the first and best compromise.

 

 

This may look a little awkward, but it's not that bad. The D key is been made wider and the C# and Eb keys have been moved outwards so that the C (E) and F (B) keys are interchangable. You're not really saving that much by doing this, but you might just like it better this way. The D, G, and A keys are all different.

 

 

Here is the second, and by far the worst, compromise.

 

 

The C and F keys are the same, the E and the B keys are the same, and the D, G, and A keys are the same. All the black keys are the same width as on the above two examples. As you can see, you're really strapped for space between adjacent black keys. This is not a practical configuration, period.

 

 

Here is a third and barely acceptable compromise.

 

 

The black keys have been significantly narrowed to allow the same minimum space between the black keys that you find on the ''ideal'' keyboard. As with the above example; C and F are the same; E and B are the same; and D, G, and A are the same. This works. But it doesn't look very nice. The wide variation of widths between the various white key shafts and the black keys make this look unbalanced.

 

 

There really aren't that many good ways to design a keyboard, as long as you stick to the basic idea of white keys that have narrow shafts and broad ends. The problem is the nature of the diatonic scale itself. The fact that there are no black keys between B and C or E and F, and that this divides the keyboard into two unequal sections, one with three white keys and one with four, severely limits the possible configurations. As far as I can tell, besides the ''ideal'' design, there are basically only two other choices that make any sense, which are the first and third compromise. In my opinion, any manufacturing costs that you save with the third compromise are going to be offset by the unprofessional look, so that really only leaves the first compromise as a viable alternative to the ideal.

 

Kiru

[orangefunk]

like I said I opened my SY35 and JX10 and they said F/C on all those keys... in fact I just measured them on my Motif and they are the same..

 

Thats all I can say...

[Kirumamoru]

 

Originally posted by orangefunk like I said I opened my SY35 and JX10 and they said F/C on all those keys... in fact I just measured them on my Motif and they are the same.. Thats all I can say...

 

Look... I'm 99% sure that they haven't changed the design of the keyboard on the Motif ES from the Motif, so I'm going to assume that we're looking at the same keyboard here.

 

I'm actually willing to concede the possibility that the C and F keys on the Motif are in fact the same key. And that the E and B keys are likewise identical. I suspect that, instead of making the key wider, Yamaha chose to make the gap between the white key shaft and the black key wider... and if you go back and take another look, you'll see that the space between C and C# is wider than the space between F and F#.

 

You won't find this on most acoustic pianos, since keys aren't mass-produced the same way they are on synthesizers. And on the P-250, as near as I can tell, the C key is 1/16th inch wider than the F key. And as I think you will observe, the basic theory stated above is sound... since I specifically said that the width of a key also included it's adjacent gap, and the gaps are, as I said above, different widths.

 

Still, on a synthesizer keyboard, I suppose it shouldn't be too surprising to find those sorts of corners being cut. The point I was more interested in making was the one that it's pretty near impossible to make a keyboard with identical D, G, and A keys. You don't even find this on mini-key keyboards... you'll notice, if you look at the microKORG, for instance, that it follows the scheme illustrated as compromise one, though the black keys are in fact noticably thinner than the shafts of the white keys (this being a compromise again to allow people's fingers to fit between the black keys).

 

Kiru

[baldo]

thoughtful post, kiru.

 

however, i respectfully think you may have too much time on your hands.

 

Unless, you also plan to april fool some of the other keyboard manufacturers. It would be a good joke, " Bosendorfer plans to change keys; all black keys look alike, now all white keys to look alike, too."

 

some folks out there will probably take offense to this idea.

 

[Kirumamoru]

Originally posted by baldo thoughtful post, kiru. however, i respectfully think you may have too much time on your hands. Unless, you also plan to april fool some of the other keyboard manufacturers. It would be a good joke, " Bosendorfer plans to change keys; all black keys look alike, now all white keys to look alike, too." some folks out there will probably take offense to this idea.

Lol... you might be right... but since I'm giving some serious thought to starting a business manufacturing musical instruments, it's certainly not time wasted. I need to think about these things at some point, right?

 

Kiru