OT: Anyone seen Farenheit 911 yet?

[heroesforghosts]

I agree with Lava. I've played guitar for over 30 yrs,but I can't even go to the guitar forums,because it reminds me of a high school mentality.And,there's a good reason for that,since guitars are more affordable,you get a lot of younger people that haven't got to the point where they can afford synths. But the overall mentality of the guitar crowd is somewhat different than here,where it seems that people are more educated. I can't stand seeing threads like "what type of strings does EVH use?",or "My Mesa will kick your Marshall's ass". Not a lot of brain power needed on topics like that. I think that the US needs to wake up and join the rest of the world when it comes to government policy.
Look at the History Channel,where all you see is things on the history of warfare,guns,and things that condition us into thinking we're pretty cool for developing new exciting weaponry. We(the US)do not need all of this war conditioning. Just because there's a history of the US being involved in warfare,it does not mean that we should continue with that mentality.Europe has become sick of war,since Europe is where 2 of the worst wars ever were fought. Perhaps if the US had been the killing fields that Europe was during WW1 and WW2,people would not be so ready to jump on the "war wagon". War is bad,period. Good for big business,but bad for the rest of the world.

[jigg]

Guitarists spend too much time with their cocks flailing about...

I've only just been able to convince my wife that a guitar is a very potent phallic symbol and doubles as a form of masturbation.

[shaktisshadow]

9/11 - homeland defense - 10,000 air guitarists.....

 

 

 

It all makes sense now..........

[phlakaton]

 

Originally posted by Lava Guitars are great, but man, the general IQ of guitarists is not even close to that of synthesists. And I'm saying that as a person who plays both, but is a guitarist first and foremost!

 

 

I've also been playing guitar for several years. I've recently started to play synth, partly because the discussions in the KSS forum are so much more interesting than in the guitar forum. Seriously.

[Yoozer]

Originally posted by jigg I've only just been able to convince my wife that a guitar is a very potent phallic symbol and doubles as a form of masturbation.

The word "licks" gets a whole new meaning, now .

[the_resonator]

Originally posted by heroesforghosts Perhaps if the US had been the killing fields that Europe was during WW1 and WW2,people would not be so ready to jump on the "war wagon".

 

 

i think this is a very good point.

I think that any attempt to understand the mass pschye of the United States vis-a-vis armed conflict ABSOLUTELY MUST include within a discussion, the effect that becoming involved in so many armed conflicts, yet never having been invaded--must have.

 

i think it's also important to take this into consideration along with the personal history of each leader we have at the policy-making level in the same fashion.

 

i.e. which ones most support the war and how often they have been to war and what their experiences with it were.

 

do you see where i am leading with this line of discussion?

[David Nevland]

Wow, way to show your ignorance. Maybe you are a gun totin' redneck who shoots first and asks questions later, and in that sense, you share a lot with our "leader," but if you read the recent report or even saw the movie, there were NO connections between Iraq and Al Qaeda.


Yeah, I realize I was lowering myself by trite name calling, but that was just a vent. There really always are two sides to every coin. I don't have a gun or a truck. I drive a Volvo and live by choice in a very open-minded, left-leaning city. I didn't grow up on a farm or a ranch, and I don't like country music, so that about makes me as far from a redneck as possible.

In other news, you obviously did NOT read the 9/11 Commission report that you are referring to because it says that there were MANY LINKS between Al Qaeda and Iraq for many years. The part that I heard repeated over and over in the news and what you regurgitated incorrectly was that Al Qaeda and Iraq did not collaborate specifically in the 9/11 attacks. The Commission Report does say, however, that one of the hijackers, Muhammad Atta, did have meetings with top-level Iraqi officials in April 2001 but that the content of that meeting is unknown.

Michael Moore is an idiot because he is a rash extremist. Fifteen months of buildup and warnings before the invasion of Iraq is not extremism.

[the_resonator]

i'm not the poster you are referring to, but you are the one regurgitating and accusing others of doing it and then accusing them of not doing it (not properly relaying ((regurgitating)) that report).

The numerous mentions have jack {censored} to do with what he and everyone else, including the commission, is saying:
there was no cooperation between al queda and iraq in the 9/11 attacks.
none.
that was their finding.

if i, say, run into you at the post office, or you come to my office and ask me to contribute to your church...can i be said to have collaborated in your letter-writing campaign and been behind the rise in your religion's importance or whatever?

no.

I've heard similar commentators, O'reily specifically, say the exact same thing as you are saying. The only problem, and what is probably frustrating to you when you say it, is that they can screen their calls and correspondence.

Whereas I can post after you to point out that it's utterly ludicrous to call into question:

-the conclusion of a bipartisan, informed and experienced commission who had read and written tens of thousands of pages of documents and evidence and heard days and days of testimony by everyone from lowly agents to the president and george bush

-the preponderance of the evidence

-historical precendence (many of those "despicable acts" were purges of islamic jihadists and radical islamic supporters because his was a secular regime)

using unsupported assertions by policy makers clearly working in their own best interests, and the same evidence that the commission used to reach a completely contrary conclusion.

what you are saying is:
i've read the report (of course, you haven't..i have a print out of it in my office right now--it would take a week to read at a fast clip), and i know better than the commission..not based on evidence, but the relative lack thereof.

it's simply ludicrous.

[Purity_Control]

i.e. which ones most support the war and how often they have been to war and what their experiences with it were.

 

 

It's interesting to look at which presidents have seen active military service, and which ones went on to start wars...

[rintincop]

Bush is spending $200 billion a year on Iraq and only $49 billion on US education and ZERO on a national health care program.

A normal human being would stop reading the childrens book and get in touch with his top staff after learning of the 9/11 attacks. Bush was dumbfounded and didn't know what to do.

Wrap a lie in the flag and Americans will die for it.

The Republicans first duty is to serve the corporations with the idea being that everything else will then be OK.

4 more years of Bush and he will expand the Iraq Campaign to invade the entire Middle East, this current war is just a prelude to the bigger Middle East plan.

There are millions of Americans who believed what they were told - about 9/11, about Iraq, about George W. Bush himself - who will come into that bright light with the realization that they have been lied to.

The connections between Bush, the Saudis, the Carlyle Group and the 9/11 attacks. The connections between Cheney and Halliburton. The connections between Enron, Unocal, natural gas pipelines, the war in Afghanistan. There are billions of dollars to be made off this Iraq war for Bush's friends.

Trooper after trooper spoke frankly for Moore's camera, condemning both the war and the people who thrust them into it.

We last see Lila standing at the gates of the White House, tears boiling from her eyes, as she discovers her true enemy (Bush) , the one who took her baby from her.

Journalists are shown glorifying Bush, his administration and the war. Each one carried forth that which we now know to be bald-faced lies: That Iraq had WMDs, that Iraq was a threat, that we had to go, and that everything is fine.

Cheney called the president of the corporation that owned one of the networks to complain about a commentator. Political aides directed ceaselessly called editors and producers with veiled threats about access that was not granted. The press would not bite the hand that would not feed it.

[Yoozer]

Originally posted by rintincop There are millions of Americans who believed what they were told - about 9/11, about Iraq, about George W. Bush himself - who will come into that bright light with the realization that they have been lied to.

 

 

Don't underestimate cognitive dissonance, though... after the few minutes when a 'believer' has seen the film, words like "Moore is a liar!" from the opposition will have extra impact.

 

On the other hand, the number of sites I've seen that demand that this movie shouldn't be showed is rising fast. What happened to freedom of speech, even if you don't necessarily agree with said speech?

[Boom]

Originally posted by Yoozer What happened to freedom of speech, even if you don't necessarily agree with said speech?

The Busch administration does not agree with free speech, just ask Howard Stern.

[Array]

Originally posted by David Nevland There's some name-calling for ya. The reason I say that is that what he is proposing is to wait for terrorists to attack us instead of having the balls to go get them where they are. And what we need now is more pacifist socialism that "contains" reckless dictators just like in 1937-40. Read history. Don't repeat it!

 

 

 

"Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Hermann Goering

 

[scubyfan]

Originally posted by Boom The Busch administration does not agree with free speech, just ask Howard Stern.

...but Dick Cheney seems to be in support of four-letter words...

[pink floyd cramer]

please take note of how I am laying out of this thread. The last OT thread I posted on was deleted, by who I don't know. I feel bad because in that thread I made it sound like rank-and-file Palestinian families were bloodthirsty barbarians. I have never been over there, but I doubt that that is the case.

Carry on and be nice! (I'm not really an asshole, I just play one on the internet ).

[jazzyprof]

Originally posted by David Nevland In other news, you obviously did NOT read the 9/11 Commission report that you are referring to because it says that there were MANY LINKS between Al Qaeda and Iraq for many years. The part that I heard repeated over and over in the news and what you regurgitated incorrectly was that Al Qaeda and Iraq did not collaborate specifically in the 9/11 attacks. The Commission Report does say, however, that one of the hijackers, Muhammad Atta, did have meetings with top-level Iraqi officials in April 2001 but that the content of that meeting is unknown. Michael Moore is an idiot because he is a rash extremist. Fifteen months of buildup and warnings before the invasion of Iraq is not extremism.

 

What you're saying is not logical. Are you saying that because one of the hijackers met with some Iraqi officials in 2001 it means there's a Saddam - al Qaeda link and we're justified in waging war on Iraq? By that logic we should be bombing Saudi Arabia instead since Osama bin Laden and 14 of the 9/11 murderers were Saudis. Now, that's a link for you. Ah, and while we're at it, why not bomb Malaysia as well, since the meeting that hatched the 9/11 plot was held in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia in January 2000, under the watchful eyes of that country's secret service. No, David, we can't use 9/11 to justify the war in Iraq.

[Mike51]

Is Moore to the left? Yes. Is the film biased? Yes.


Is it wrong? No. There are no errors in his facts and figures.


And that is what is disturbing to America.

You need to have some semblence of truth and fact to play a documentary like this in front of millions. This film would be getting taken down right now, but it's not. And the reason the right wing doesn't have a Michael Moore is because to get a film to this level you have to have some kind of foundation based in fact to go ahead with a widespread film like this.

The film speaks a truth. Does it speak for the truth? No. But it is part of it.

[keanu reeves]

Originally posted by jazzyprof What you're saying is not logical. Are you saying that because one of the hijackers met with some Iraqi officials in 2001 it means there's a Saddam - al Qaeda link and we're justified in waging war on Iraq? By that logic we should be bombing Saudi Arabia instead since Osama bin Laden and 14 of the 9/11 murderers were Saudis. Now, that's a link for you. Ah, and while we're at it, why not bomb Malaysia as well, since the meeting that hatched the 9/11 plot was held in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia in January 2000, under the watchful eyes of that country's secret service. No, David, we can't use 9/11 to justify the war in Iraq.

 

 

jesus im glad somebody said it.

[Yoozer]

Originally posted by Boom The Bush administration does not agree with free speech, just ask Howard Stern.

But these groups are just "concerned citizens". Let me be naive for a while and assume that they have nothing to do with the administration, except for sharing the ideology - that's still screwed up.

[Array]

Originally posted by Yoozer But these groups are just "concerned citizens". Let me be naive for a while and assume that they have nothing to do with the administration, except for sharing the ideology - that's still screwed up.

 

 

Actually, Colin Powell's children run the FCC.

[Lava]

Originally posted by heroesforghosts I agree with Lava. I've played guitar for over 30 yrs,but I can't even go to the guitar forums,because it reminds me of a high school mentality.And,there's a good reason for that,since guitars are more affordable,you get a lot of younger people that haven't got to the point where they can afford synths.

 

 

Well, I'm not quite sure it's entirely that. I think to appreciate the sound of synthesizers, you must also have an affinity for electronics, especially these days where most of the synths coming out are digital and/or software. And it takes smarts to fully appreciate electronics.

 

If you're a redneck out in the woods, you're going to love Lynyrd Skynyrd and their guitars, but you won't have that connection to technology that will allow you to appreciate a beep or a bleep or white noise as being musical.

 

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong... am I being classist here?

[Green Red Brown]

Originally posted by Mike51 Is Moore to the left? Yes. Is the film biased? Yes. Is it wrong? No. There are no errors in his facts and figures. And that is what is disturbing to America. You need to have some semblence of truth and fact to play a documentary like this in front of millions. This film would be getting taken down right now, but it's not. And the reason the right wing doesn't have a Michael Moore is because to get a film to this level you have to have some kind of foundation based in fact to go ahead with a widespread film like this. The film speaks a truth. Does it speak for the truth? No. But it is part of it.

 

 

OMG, a True Believer . I can't let that pass. Don't go spouting off like this in front of your friends, folks, or they might start avoiding you and consider you an ass. What's sad about America is when people start considering Mike Moore a fountain of truth. That way lies "politics as a religion", where one side is always right, and the other is always wrong. The same as the folks who have the bumper stickers that say "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it" on their cars.

 

It's complete bollocks to say they couldn't show the film if it wasn't true. That's laughable! It's like saying "They couldn't show it on TV if it wasn't true". I give folks in here more credit than that, but apparently Mike doesn't. Only the completely credulous would believe a statement like that.

 

There is a mini-industry of people publishing books with titles like "The Lying Lies of that Liar, George Bush. Liar!". Soon there will also be a mini-industry of people publishing web sites and the like about "The Lies of Michael Moore".

 

Let's get this straight.... I'm not saying everything Moore says is untrue. I'm saying that he stages various scenes for "dramatic effect", and then presents them to his audience as a straight documentary. What he shows you is something that is MADE UP, that represents his POV (and also lines his pockets). He is an entertainer, and a pretty good one at that, but he is being untruthful to the extent that he passes his work off as documentary. It isn't. It is entertainment, and a political screed. The "Rush Limbaugh of the Left", if you will. If you take it as that, and have a good time while you are there, it'll be worth your cash. If you decide that you have to convince everyone that it is the gospel truth, you're going to look pretty silly in front of all your friends who know better. It's not nice when people laugh at you behind your back. ;

I could post a bunch of links to sites that debunk what Moore has to say, but I'll just post one, from Slate Magazine (hardly a right-wing tool... they're pretty much left-of-center.... used to be Michael Kinsley's mag).

 

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723

 

The author is Christopher Hitchens. Here is a longish quote, just to balance out the "Moore is God" claptrap above. If you have even a shred of an idea that you should take Moore's stuff with a grain of salt, just as you should take what Bush says with a giant grain of salt, then please click on the link and read the whole piece. It's pretty evident that Hitchens doesn't respect Moore very much, and mostly because Moore will stoop to any subterfuge to prove his point. An honest Leftie is one thing. Moore is anything *but* honest.

 

Begin quote

 

"We are introduced to Iraq, "a sovereign nation." (In fact, Iraq's "sovereignty" was heavily qualified by international sanctions, however questionable, which reflected its noncompliance with important U.N. resolutions.) In this peaceable kingdom, according to Moore's flabbergasting choice of film shots, children are flying little kites, shoppers are smiling in the sunshine, and the gentle rhythms of life are undisturbed. Then

[Array]

That way lies "politics as a religion", where one side is always right, and the other is always wrong. The same as the folks who have the bumper stickers that say "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it" on their cars.

 

 

I believe the term you are looking for is dogma.

 

 

It's complete bollocks to say they couldn't show the film if it wasn't true. That's laughable! It's like saying "They couldn't show it on TV if it wasn't true". I give folks in here more credit than that, but apparently Mike doesn't. Only the completely credulous would believe a statement like that.

 

 

The problem with your statement is that Moore's films portray REAL people doing unsavory things. If there were no facts to back up these portrayals, Moore would be sued for slander.

[DancingApe]

No matter if Moore is right or not, Bush still is a {censored}ing arrogant ignorant {censored}head and should be removed by the american people!
If the world would be allowed to vote, Bush would not stand a chance.
The largest (most people ever) demonstrations in the mandkinds history has been held against Bush and the War in Iraq. That says something about what humans (No, americans are not actually the "offical" humans of the world) think about all this.

[Yoozer]

Originally posted by Green Red Brown There is a mini-industry of people publishing books with titles like "The Lying Lies of that Liar, George Bush. Liar!".

Oh.. have they also written "No One Left To Lie To"?

Wait, no.. that was about Bill Clinton and portrayed him as "War criminal, criminal psychopath and rapist". And lookie there, that's the same guy who wrote the article you linked! .

So, don't just believe it all slavishly. Use your mind, and question what Moore says, just like you question what other people say, even if you agree with the general premise. It is indeed possible to say all the right things, for all the wrong reasons. Make sure you have your facts straight before you start using Moore to back yourself up.

Now this I can agree with.