How's the Yamaha Sy77?

[Andersonology]

Originally posted by Hell Bites Ok, you go for the SY-77 and I'll go for the SY-85 Ok, you guys all go for the SY-77 and I'll go for the inadequate SY-85

 

I have both.

[Hell Bites]

I was gonna PM you but for some reason there's no button. Anyway, is the Piano sound much better on the SY-85 than the SY-77/SY-99? I was originally looking at the Roland XP series but the Yamaha SY's have MUCH better reviews. Thanks

[Sealed]

I think SY85 has one of the best piano samples - it has its own character - sounds both acoustic and synthetic at the same time. It's at least better than SY77/99.

 

Roland XP's piano samples are not bad, but I prefer JV-80's piano - they are not long, but impressive enough.

[aeon]

Keep in mind also:

 

SY77 has 61 keys, SY99 has 76

 

SY77 has 4MB of sample ROM, SY99 has...8MB

 

SY77 has 4 FX processors based on the SPX90, SY99 has 2 FX processors based on the SPX1000 (so it is definitely a case of quantity or quality)

 

SY99 can load samples from floppy or via MIDI SDS and can have expanded RAM beyond the base amount, SY77 does not

 

 

might be other things too that I am forgetting, but hey, it is early and I am half-awake, heh.

 

 

cheers,

aeon

[ksounds]

 

Originally posted by aeon Keep in mind also: SY77 has 61 keys, SY99 has 76 SY77 has 4MB of sample ROM, SY99 has...8MB SY77 has 4 FX processors based on the SPX90, SY99 has 2 FX processors based on the SPX1000 (so it is definitely a case of quantity or quality) SY99 can load samples from floppy or via MIDI SDS and can have expanded RAM beyond the base amount, SY77 does not

 

 

While the SY-99 has more sample ROM than the SY-77, I'm pretty sure the piano is the same.

 

On the subject of pianos, my personal opinion is that the SY-85's piano is better than the 77/99. If you get a TG-500, there are two pianos in ROM. The additional one is more mellow. Definitely more piano variety / flexibility there than with an SY-99.

 

A stock SY-99 only comes with 512k (yes, 1/2 Mb) of sample RAM. This RAM was extremely expensive to upgrade in its day, and I expect that you'd *still* pay a comparatively steep price to upgrade it if you can even find the memory modules at all.

[Hell Bites]

Since the SY-85 doesn't have FM synthesis, do the E. Pianos suffer at all?

[Sealed]

SY85/TG500 has many FM-EP samples. Using these DX samples, other digital waveforms, filter and FXs, good DX emulation can be made - though true FM synths responds more dramatically to velocity.

 

As SY85 is YAMAHA's one of the earliest rompler, its user interface has some odd characters - layering is only possible in the Performance Mode, etc.

 

SY85 has many impressive synthetic short-loops. YAMAHA tried to contain both quality and variety at the same time within its 6MB ROM. The piano sample seem to be recorded with much compressor and exciter, though still retaining acoustic flavour.

I think YAMAHA's ROM-saving effort led to its own character that won't be found in today's synths with much bigger ROM.

 

Otherwise, the upgraded versions of SY85 - W5/7 came first, and later CS6x and Motif - has much better interface, filter and FX.

[Analog Kid]

SY-85 fans, sorry about dissing your machine. I have no doubt the pianos are way better and most of the acoustic instruments probaby are, I should have stated that the specialty of the AFM engine was in making pure sounds, not as a rompler. If someone wanted that there are a ga-zillion better tone modules although the "instruments" on the AFM synths are usable in general.

Then again if that's what someone wanted in a Yamaha the best modules might be EX or Motif series.

But the SY-85 is probably a good alternate choice for a number of reasons.

 

Still, i suspect around here, most of these guys have a decent piano and would be more interested in the unique capabilities of the AFM engines.

Also there are instrument catagories that shine on FM

For instance someone asked if the teeny tiny EP samples on the 85 suffered in comparison to the AFM algorhitims...

the only honest answer is emphatically yes.

 

peace out.

[Hell Bites]

Originally posted by Sealed SY85/TG500 has many FM-EP samples. Using these DX samples, other digital waveforms, filter and FXs, good DX emulation can be made - though true FM synths responds more dramatically to velocity. As SY85 is YAMAHA's one of the earliest rompler, its user interface has some odd characters - layering is only possible in the Performance Mode, etc. SY85 has many impressive synthetic short-loops. YAMAHA tried to contain both quality and variety at the same time within its 6MB ROM. The piano sample seem to be recorded with much compressor and exciter, though still retaining acoustic flavour. I think YAMAHA's ROM-saving effort led to its own character that won't be found in today's synths with much bigger ROM. Otherwise, the upgraded versions of SY85 - W5/7 came first, and later CS6x and Motif - has much better interface, filter and FX.

 

Man, how do you guys know all of this information!?

I didn't know about the W5/7 series but after reading a lot of reviews its interesting to see how they seem to compare fairly poorly to the SY series. The SY-77/99 and SY-85 have rave reviews, especially on Sonic State, while the W5/7 are much more mediocre.

Often, it's hard to interpret reviews because some people are definitely "fussier" about their sounds.

For example, I thought these piano and e. piano clips of the TG55 from the synthmania website sounded pretty good (although the piano has somewhat short loops) but I know a lot of people would think these are pretty poor samples:

 

Piano 1

 

DX Piano

 

Piano Mist

 

and these are just the TG55 sounds (SY55) and the SY-85 is supposed to have improved sounds

[Hell Bites]

I mean, are they really THAT much worse than these piano and e piano samples of the yamaha P90 digital piano?

 

 

Grand Piano 2

 

E. Piano 1

 

Grand Piano 1

[Kirumamoru]

Those TG acoustic piano sounds suck and sound like GM sounds. Actually, I think that they are rather charming to my ears, but compared to a real piano? The P-90's GP1 patch is orders of magnitude better... but you have to understand that, despite the fact that calling me a bad pianist is an insult to bad pianists, I love the piano and am intimately familiar with the sound. Now, the P-90's GP2 patch is not as good as the GP1 IMO, but I'd still say it's more authentic than the TG acoustic piano.

 

As for the DX EP sounds, I'd say that the P-90's rendition is more realistic in the sense that it more closely emulates the sound of, well, a DX7. But the TG also has a nice sound to it, a character of its own, and for these I'd say the difference is less "authenticity" and more personal preference.... Plus, there are a bunch of different DX EP's.

 

Kiru

[Hell Bites]

 

Originally posted by ksounds While the SY-99 has more sample ROM than the SY-77, I'm pretty sure the piano is the same. On the subject of pianos, my personal opinion is that the SY-85's piano is better than the 77/99. If you get a TG-500, there are two pianos in ROM. The additional one is more mellow. Definitely more piano variety / flexibility there than with an SY-99. A stock SY-99 only comes with 512k (yes, 1/2 Mb) of sample RAM. This RAM was extremely expensive to upgrade in its day, and I expect that you'd *still* pay a comparatively steep price to upgrade it if you can even find the memory modules at all.

 

 

Crazy to think that now you have such things as the perfect piano (by Ensoniq) which is around 32MB I think. I still think the older synths do a pretty good job (judging by various clips on the net). Wouldn't you guys agree that a lot of it depends on whether or not you're playing a solo piano piece or one within the context of guitar, bass, drums, etc.? If you're playing in a rock/metal band let's say, having the most realistic piano sound isn't exactly necessary.

[wes-ninja250]

 

ouldn't you guys agree that a lot of it depends on whether or not you're playing a solo piano piece or one within the context of guitar, bass, drums, etc.

 

 

Bingo. Even my lowly PSR-510 sounded fine in a mix, as long as it wasn't used too heavily.

 

Solo piano is a whole 'nother ball of wax -- and different pianos work for different pieces. I like DX EP sounds for a lot of slowish jazzy stuff -- but you have to watch your pedalling and ideally EQ out some of the mud [100 and 10000 Hz 12dB shelf EQs work well for this IMHO].

 

One thing I've found, though - a solo gig (or a piano + vocal gig) really needs one and only one piano sound per set. So you'd better make it a good, versatile patch, or you jarr the audience every time you hit that "program change" button.... Which is why I like a realistic piano for that type of gig; I can be anywhere from honey-dew-soft to downright percussive without changing patches.

 

Wes

[Kirumamoru]

 

Originally posted by Hell Bites Wouldn't you guys agree that a lot of it depends on whether or not you're playing a solo piano piece or one within the context of guitar, bass, drums, etc.? If you're playing in a rock/metal band let's say, having the most realistic piano sound isn't exactly necessary.

 

Yeah, I'd definitely agree with that. An analogy might be the idea of putting tacks in piano hammers so that the sound is brasher and cuts more.... Sometimes you need a sound that isn't a Yamaha CFIIIS or a Steinway Model D.

 

Kiru

[Hell Bites]

Originally posted by Analog Kid SY-85 fans, sorry about dissing your machine. I have no doubt the pianos are way better and most of the acoustic instruments probaby are, I should have stated that the specialty of the AFM engine was in making pure sounds, not as a rompler. If someone wanted that there are a ga-zillion better tone modules although the "instruments" on the AFM synths are usable in general. Then again if that's what someone wanted in a Yamaha the best modules might be EX or Motif series. But the SY-85 is probably a good alternate choice for a number of reasons. Still, i suspect around here, most of these guys have a decent piano and would be more interested in the unique capabilities of the AFM engines. Also there are instrument catagories that shine on FM For instance someone asked if the teeny tiny EP samples on the 85 suffered in comparison to the AFM algorhitims... the only honest answer is emphatically yes. peace out.

 

Hmmm. I see. Thanks for the information and tips. What's the difference between ROM and this AWM (advanced wave memory) I keep hearing about? (I think I might just start a separate thread on finding a cheap rompler with excellent piano; sorry for hijacking the thread. )

[Analog Kid]

Rom, PCM, AWM, HI... whatever else is out there- its all the same thing.

 

the conversion utility can be found on FM-Alive.

[Hell Bites]

 

Originally posted by ksounds While the SY-99 has more sample ROM than the SY-77, I'm pretty sure the piano is the same. On the subject of pianos, my personal opinion is that the SY-85's piano is better than the 77/99. If you get a TG-500, there are two pianos in ROM. The additional one is more mellow. Definitely more piano variety / flexibility there than with an SY-99.

 

 

Interesting, after looking a bit more online, I think they may actually be the same (no offence) as the SY-85 and SY-99 both seem to utilize AWM2 (2nd Generation 16-bit Advanced Wave Memory).

[ksounds]

Well, it's true that the SY-85 and SY-99 both use "AWM2," but so do all of Yamaha's sample-playback synths made in the last decade or so. "AWM2" is just Yamaha's term for sample-playback. It has nothing to with what samples are included - or even the basic sonic character of the instrument. I own an SY-99, a TG-500 (SY-85 rack), and a Motif ES. All of them offer AWM2, and all of them sound very different from each other.

[Hell Bites]

 

Originally posted by ksounds Well, it's true that the SY-85 and SY-99 both use "AWM2," but so do all of Yamaha's sample-playback synths made in the last decade or so. "AWM2" is just Yamaha's term for sample-playback. It has nothing to with what samples are included - or even the basic sonic character of the instrument. I own an SY-99, a TG-500 (SY-85 rack), and a Motif ES. All of them offer AWM2, and all of them sound very different from each other.

 

 

I see, thanks for the clarification. So is the real problem that Yamaha didn't put enough space in synths such as the SY-99 and SY-85 to upgrade their sounds? For example, I hear the SY-85 can load in new sounds (one site mentions that as such the SY-85 is like a "chameleon") but is the reason it can never really get a great piano sound is because the synth itself can never be loaded with let's say a 32mb or so piano sound?

[aeon]

Originally posted by ksounds A stock SY-99 only comes with 512k (yes, 1/2 Mb) of sample RAM. This RAM was extremely expensive to upgrade in its day, and I expect that you'd *still* pay a comparatively steep price to upgrade it if you can even find the memory modules at all.

 

The SY99 I traded to a fellow HC KSSer had 4 of the RAM expansions installed.

 

Anyway, 512K for samples is more than enough for the reasons you would use them on the SY99...even if you were making a straight-up synth-map to use alone, or layer with the FM.

 

I mean, you don't get a SY99 to do a 32MB Piano or 256MB string section after all.

 

 

cheers,

aeon

[Analog Kid]

check out the musitronics SY-99 ram expansion

 

 

___________________________

To understand how our SY99 PCM Ram Expansion works, first we will explain how your SY99 PCM Sample memory is designed. Totally your SY99 can control 32 Mega Byte of Sampling material, but now only the half memory is used.

The first 8 Mbytes contains the internal Sample Rom Preset 1 and Preset 2, after that a half Mbytes (512 Kbytes) internal Ram area followed. Than you can plug additional 2.5 Mbytes of Expansion Boards (5 times x 0.5 Mbytes = 2.5) into your SY99, so you have a maximum of 3 Mbytes sampling ram until now. This shows the following table:

Mega Bytes: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

Sample Type: Preset 1 Preset 2 Ram Expanded Ram Rom Card

 

You can always install the musitronics SY99 Ram Expansion, even if you have installed some original Yamaha Ram boards. With DIP-Switches you can adjust the musitronics SY99 Ram Expansion to you individual SY99 Ram situation. If your total Ram Space exceed more than 3Mbyte you get a new operating system chip that can handle Ram - Space up to 8 Mbytes. But for upgrading the new operating system chip it is important that you have the latest operating system software of SY99. It is Main Rom software version 1.57. You can display the software Version if you press simultaneously the Voice and then the internal and then the 1 switch below the internal switch.

 

We use high quality low - power static ram with low current. The Ram Style Expansion contains a 3V Lithium Cell, so that the PCM Data contains in memory if the SY99 is switched off. These Batteries are in a holder so it is easy to exchange them by yourself.

 

After your open your SY99 you put the Expansion in a connector of the mainboard. And then you have to solder 6 cables on 6 pins of IC. We have a detailed installation manual with pictures.

 

Here you can download the manual: SY99-ANL-E.PDF pdf.gif (182 Byte) 69 KB PDF-format

 

You can buy two Versions of the SY99 Expansion: with 3MByte for US$/Euro 190,- or with 5Myte for US$/Euro 290,- The 3MByte Expansion has the Capcity of 6 Yamaha Memory Boards and the 5 MByte Expansion the Capacity of 10 ! Yamaha Boards.

[Analog Kid]

So, total, you can have up to 8mb ram.

 

 

 

Musitronics also makes, of course, the excellent D-50 expansion card, the M.EX

 

They also make a SY-77 sample rom expansion, along with some other devices.

 

For instance, i see styles for the Cambridge Crew's pet, the PSR-8000

[ksounds]

 

Originally posted by Hell Bites I see, thanks for the clarification. So is the real problem that Yamaha didn't put enough space in synths such as the SY-99 and SY-85 to upgrade their sounds? For example, I hear the SY-85 can load in new sounds (one site mentions that as such the SY-85 is like a "chameleon") but is the reason it can never really get a great piano sound is because the synth itself can never be loaded with let's say a 32mb or so piano sound?

 

 

When the SY-99 and SY-85 were made, their sample RAM capacities were pretty competitive. The Korg 01/W was direct competition, and it had no capacity for sample RAM at all. Ditto for Roland's romplers at the time. The K2000's 64Mb capacity put them all to shame, but unlike the K2000, the SY-99 retained samples in memory when turned off.

 

As far as having an awesome piano sound in the SY series, what was awesome in the early 90's is very different from what is awesome today. Personally, I feel the SY series - particularly the SY-85 and TG-500 - have better factory pianos than the 01/W or K2000. Others may have different opinions, but either way, none of those machines have a convincing ROM piano by today's standards. If you're using a fully-expanded SY-99, you could have a piano of P200 quality. But to my knowledge, these samples were never released for the SY-99, and buying a P50-m would be much easier and cheaper regardless.

[Hell Bites]

 

Originally posted by Sealed I think SY85 has one of the best piano samples - it has its own character - sounds both acoustic and synthetic at the same time. It's at least better than SY77/99. Roland XP's piano samples are not bad, but I prefer JV-80's piano - they are not long, but impressive enough.

 

 

You know, I finally got to hear a Roland XP in person and wasn't very impressed by its piano sample (although it didn't have the session card in it). Listening to samples of the Roland Sound Canvas (and I believe the JV series used the same samples) I was much more impressed.

[Hell Bites]

 

Originally posted by ksounds On the subject of pianos, my personal opinion is that the SY-85's piano is better than the 77/99. If you get a TG-500, there are two pianos in ROM. The additional one is more mellow. Definitely more piano variety / flexibility there than with an SY-99.

 

 

Interesting, after reading up on the Tg-500, it appears to be way superior to the SY-85 (discounting lack of keyboard of course). It has 64 polyphony and 8mb of rom. That's 2mb more than the SY-85 and I know in those days, that was a big deal.