Any B3/organ players ever use/play a Kurz PC2 (76 keys)?

[S80Bob]

Any and all comments welcomed!

 

The short of it...

Options I'm considering:

1) Kurzweil PC2/O (76 key) with Roland XV-2020 now, later (6-12 months later) adding Roland VK-8M or

2) Roland VR-760.

 

I think option 1 is much better, but feel is crucial.

 

 

The long of it...

 

I'm fishing for opinions of a select group. I've recently hooked up with some new fellas and in this group my main focus will be on B3 style organ playing. Until recently I've never played this style; moving drawbars, starting and stoping the leslie/rotary effects, PALM swipes, etc. B3 playing is much different from piano playing and/or pads and strings. Right now I have an XP-80 (w/ Session and Orch I), a JV-90, an XV-2020 (w/ Ultimate Keys) and an Yammy S90 (w/ DX plug-in). The best sounding organ sounds are found in my S90. So I brought this with me on our last gig and the sound was excellent. The S90 is a bit overkill for this use, it's big, it's heavy, it's fully weighted, but I love the board. So I've been thinking about selling off my current Roland equipment for a VR-760. I want to have great pianos and synth sounds at my disposal. As far as synth sounds I really want warm rich pads and excellent strings, that's about it. But I thought about selling my XP-80 and JV-90, the SRX-07 Ultimate Keys expansion card, but keeping the XV-2020 and buying a Kurzweil PC2 (76 key version) and later adding a Roland VK-8M.

 

In my mind this may be the way to go. I would think I'd have much better control using the PC2 over a VR-760. I've heard the PC2's KB3 mode and was very impressed, but it lacks the real-time drawbar editing, but the KB3 could get me by for 6-12 months, while I learn swipes and effects control, until I could add a VK-8M.

 

But here's the big question. Feel. Have any of you guys played a PC2 using B3 techniques? I really need to have the waterfall type keys as opposed to the sythkeys of the XP-80 and JV-90. Therein lies my reason for a new keyboard(keybed). Otherwise I'd just get a VK-8M and play it through the XP-80. I have read many articles from great b3 players and the consensus is, waterfall keys a must for good palm swipes. The PC2's keys do have that front face (waterfall).

 

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

Bob

 

[GigMan]

Get a Nord Electro 2 - waterfall keys, great organ sounds + some cool electromechanical pianos too (Wurlitzer, Rhodes, Yamaha CP70).

 

Kurzweil PC2 is a great board, but you can't do "organ moves" on it - it's just not the right type of keyboard. The keys are light - they are "semi-weighted" - definitely lighter than your S90. But they are not as light as the Nord Electro.

 

Heck, if you want to play a lot of organ stuff why not look into a Korg CX3? That seems to be the bad boy on the block for dedicated organ simulation kybds.

[GigMan]

BTW, S80Bob -

 

If you now play a Yam. S90 you'll need to change your screen name: to S90Bob

[CaptLego]

I too have an S90 and XP80. I added a PC2R, mostly for orchestral sounds, but liked the KB3 mode for organs.

 

You do have realtime drawbar controls with the KB3 mode, you just don't have drawbars. On the PC2R, you can turn knobs instead of drawbars. In my case, I hooked up a Kenton Control Phreak for midi drawbar controls.

 

However --- for organ playing, you realy want a true waterfall keyboard. Note that this is more than just having a front face on the keys (like I think the PC2 keyboard has). You also want:

 

No lip on the front of the keys. That lip is trouble for palm smears.

(Doesn't the PC2 have a front lip?)

 

Also, you want a very light action, with the notes sounding with very little key movement, or more precisely, you want plenty of key movement, but the notes should trigger early in the key's travel.

 

I ended up buying a VK-8, for the waterfall keyboard, drawbars, and organ sounds. I couldn't be happier.

 

If you want to play alot of B3 stuf, you should look at the clones.

 

Doesn't the V760 have a waterfall keyboard and the VK organ sounds? Also, I think you could put roland synth expansion boards in there for your strings....

[S80Bob]

Thanks Gigman and CaptLego.

 

I didn't realize that waterfall meant no front lip on the key. See that? Learn something new everyday.

 

I use S80Bob only because I use it on a few other forums as well and I try to limit my screen/user names. I can hardly remember my own real name .

 

The Nord Electo 2 (73) was on my list but I ws thinking it's control-ability wouldn't be that of the Kurz PC2. But I'm still considering the Electo 2.

 

The VR-760 is supposed to use the VK8 sound engine. So it's supposed to be a VK-8 but with the added keys and sounds. This has always been my first choice but I got to thinking about the Kurz a few days ago and read about the KB3 mode which seems to have all I'd need. I've heard both the VR-760 and the Kurz, (played a PC2X though) just not side by side, and to my ear both were satisfying.

 

Most of my playing with this new band, would be mainly B3 stuff, but 25% of the songs would be pads and or strings, maybe every once in a while, a piano either EP or acoustic.

 

I also play in another band at my church, this is just the opposite. I play mainly EP's layered with pads and/or stings, once in a while B3 or pipe organ stuff.

 

So I'd really like one board I can haul around an rely on no matter what the gig. I've been using my S90 at church and it's been wonderful. I used it at my first gig with the new band and it sounded great but again, it's fully weighted and doesn't lend itself to proper organ techniques.

 

I'm also trying to think about the future, this is where the PC2 has an advantage, it's control-ability. I'm thinking with the S90 and the PC2, my keys would be covered for the rest of my life. Then I could just simply get sound modules. I was thinking if I get the PC2, I'd actually add the Roland VK-8M but that might be unneccesary.

 

Anyway. Thanks for the tips. I need to go out and play these three boards but they are so hard to find:

Nord Electo 2

VR-760

PC2

 

I did think about a Roland VK-8 and a Hammond XK-2 but these boards won't help me with those 25% pads/string songs and that every so often piano song. Toting two keyboards would propably be my best option, but sometimes you don't get much room on stage ya know? Or you appear to the audiance that your some kind of master keyboardist and your really just humbly playing in the background. The new band I'm in also has a piano player/vocalist. I won't be playing any wild leads either. So I want to be unassuming on stage, so to speak.

 

Thanks again , your input was helpful.

 

 

Bob

[GigMan]

Originally posted by S80Bob Thanks Gigman and CaptLego. I did think about a Roland VK-8 and a Hammond XK-2 but these boards won't help me with those 25% pads/string songs and that every so often piano song. Toting two keyboards would propably be my best option, but sometimes you don't get much room on stage ya know? Or you appear to the audiance that your some kind of master keyboardist and your really just humbly playing in the background. The new band I'm in also has a piano player/vocalist. I won't be playing any wild leads either. So I want to be unassuming on stage, so to speak. Thanks again , your input was helpful. Bob

 

Using 2 keyboards doesn't mean you're showboating - it means you're a professional, using the tools of the trade. A carpenter shows up with more than one saw at a job, doesn't he?

 

Plus, it doesn't really take any more room to have 2 'boards than one: the 2-tier stands take up the same "footprint" on stage, they're just higher up vertically.

 

I say your best best is the S90 on the bottom tier (which is heavy) along w/the Nord Electro on the top tier (which is super-light) - a reasonable compromise.

 

[daviel]

I'm using a pc1x [pc2 sounds minus the kb3] and a hammond-suzuki xk3. I really like the sounds of the kurzweil board. But I just like their products going back to the pc88s. I played a pc88 tonight and I just love them. This pc1x and xk3 is a good set up for me. But I try to keep extraneous sounds to a minimum and stick to piano and organ with an occasional, rare, string patch every now and again. All my playing is live - no computer input or step sequencing, etc. I have too short an attention span for that! One thing I have found is that the keys on the organ do matter. The keyboard of the xk3 is very B3ish and it jump starts the playability of the organ. Makes me play better - - over my head. But, I think a pc2 now, with a goal of adding your favorite clone later is a good plan. The pc2 can hold you until you can acquire an organ clone. I test drove the pc2 and liked the kb3. Just pay attention to the keys and how they feel when you finally get a clone. Get one with organ-like keys. The v-combo keys felt good when I tried it out [quite a few times], and I guess it's really an expanded vk8. You're going to do fine either way.

[GigMan]

 

Originally posted by daviel I'm using a pc1x [pc2 sounds minus the kb3] and a hammond-suzuki xk3. I really like the sounds of the kurzweil board. But I just like their products going back to the pc88s. I played a pc88 tonight and I just love them. This pc1x and xk3 is a good set up for me. But I try to keep extraneous sounds to a minimum and stick to piano and organ with an occasional, rare, string patch every now and again. All my playing is live - no computer input or step sequencing, etc. I have too short an attention span for that! One thing I have found is that the keys on the organ do matter. The keyboard of the xk3 is very B3ish and it jump starts the playability of the organ. Makes me play better - - over my head. But, I think a pc2 now, with a goal of adding your favorite clone later is a good plan. The pc2 can hold you until you can acquire an organ clone. I test drove the pc2 and liked the kb3. Just pay attention to the keys and how they feel when you finally get a clone. Get one with organ-like keys. The v-combo keys felt good when I tried it out [quite a few times], and I guess it's really an expanded vk8. You're going to do fine either way.

 

 

daviel -

 

Just out of curiosity: did you try the other organ clones + modules - Korg CX3, Voce, Roland VK8, etc... before you wound up going with the xk3??

[S80Bob]

 

Originally posted by daviel I'm using a pc1x [pc2 sounds minus the kb3] and a hammond-suzuki xk3. I really like the sounds of the kurzweil board. But I just like their products going back to the pc88s. I played a pc88 tonight and I just love them. This pc1x and xk3 is a good set up for me. But I try to keep extraneous sounds to a minimum and stick to piano and organ with an occasional, rare, string patch every now and again. All my playing is live - no computer input or step sequencing, etc. I have too short an attention span for that! One thing I have found is that the keys on the organ do matter. The keyboard of the xk3 is very B3ish and it jump starts the playability of the organ. Makes me play better - - over my head. But, I think a pc2 now, with a goal of adding your favorite clone later is a good plan. The pc2 can hold you until you can acquire an organ clone. I test drove the pc2 and liked the kb3. Just pay attention to the keys and how they feel when you finally get a clone. Get one with organ-like keys. The v-combo keys felt good when I tried it out [quite a few times], and I guess it's really an expanded vk8. You're going to do fine either way.

 

 

I really like the PC2x's sounds and functionality. My son-in-law has the PC2X. Since I have the Yammy S90, and am in need now of playing more organ parts, I was on my way to buying a Roland VR-760. But was troubled by it's synth section a little and it's control-ability. As I understand it you can't tweak the synth soudns and store them. You can get one expansion board, but the same still applies. There's no user bank. I do like the sounds the PC2X produces including the KB3 organs. To me, in a mix, they sound as good as any clone. I've never been an organ player, maybe that's why. But I also have therefore never developed any playing techniques for organ. I was doing glissandos on my S90 and palm swipes as well, but in a limited fashion and I need to learn more about those techniques anyway.

 

So I'm hoping the PC2 - 76 key version is organ playable for a piano player. Gigman's idea of the Electro is a good one though. I haven't excluded that.

 

Gigman, how is the electro at controlling a sound module? Can you switch parts easily. Like if I setup a performance bank on my XV-2020, ie, piano in part 1, strings in part 2, pads in part 3, chimes in part 4, Would I be able to select one or more of these parts quickly and easily (for live use).

 

I actually thought of getting a PC2, and grinding off the lip on the keys themselves. to make it truly waterfall. I have one of those little hand held high speed rotary grinders. I could put a coarse grinder on it, then switch to fine once the tip is removed to make a smooth finsh.... Now I must be going crazy heh?

 

Here's me... Yeah gimme that 1800 dollar board so I can take a grinder to it would ya?

 

but seriosly... I'm leaning PC2 for my organ, knowing full well, it can handle EP's and pads and strings, it's just a matter of if I can play organ techniques well enough.

 

Thanks again.

Bob

 

[dan88z]

 

Originally posted by S80Bob The Nord Electo 2 (73) was on my list but I ws thinking it's control-ability wouldn't be that of the Kurz PC2. But I'm still considering the Electo 2.

 

 

In what way? The Electro is made for live performance. Everything is real easy to get to- no menus at all. Every knob has a real time function. It's a very controllable board.

 

It's not so good as a midi controller, but an Electro along with one of the other keyboards you already have to cover the synth/strings end of things would be a pretty nice setup for a mostly organ rig. You can use the other keyboard to set up a "lower manual" midi'd into the Electro and be able to use 2 different organ settings at once (just like the real thing!)

 

If I were going to be playing that much organ (actually, I do play that much organ in my band), I'd want something thats a dedicated organ like the Electro, CX3, XK3, etc, not an emulation in a Kurzweil.

[S80Bob]

hi dan88z,

 

You just raised a pretty good point and an idea for me. But first to clarify what I ment by control-ability, I did mean as a midi controller.

 

But the idea you have given me was this, I could sell

1) my XP-80 with it's two expansion boards (session and orch I) and my

2) SRX-07 expansion board (which is the Ultimate keys, which I bought to help me cover organs and eps)

 

Hopefully I'd make anywhere from 800 to 1000,

 

Buy an electro 2 (73). Would still have my JV-90 and the XV-2020 to cover my syth needs. I could put the electro on the bottom and the JV-90 on top, and the XV-2020 maybe on the electro off to one side. I could then midi out from the JV-90 to in on XV-2020, then use the XV-2020's thru to midi in on the electo.

 

Playing the jv-90 would trigger both xv-2020 and upper manual of electro (or second manual). I could simply lower the volume on the XV-2020 and get two manual ogran sounds, keeping my b3 playing techniques restricted to the electro (swipes and what nots), and just chord off the JV-90.

 

Then when I need EP's just play the electro, when I need just syth strings, lower the volume on the electro, raise the volume on the XV-2020 and play the JV-90.

 

Hmmmmm. this might work out. I could have what I need but will have to bring three synths all the time (2 boards, 1 sound module). Hmmmmmm. Sounds good but, cumbersome. How is the electro at simply playing patches from a sound module? Should be simple right? After all, it has MIDI out.

 

Hmmm, Thanks for the idea dan88z.

 

 

Bob

 

[GigMan]

But what about the S90?

 

I still think you're covered for ANY gig with the combo of an S90 + Nord Electro.

 

BTW -

I don't have a Nord but if I were to get an organ "clone" keyboard that's what I'd get, only because the addt'l sounds the Nord has [Rhodes, Wurli, CP70, even a decent Acouts. Piano make it much more flexible and practical for someone like me, since I play all different kinds of gig situations.

 

BTW #2 -

When playing band gigs, I always bring 2 'boards + a sound module (Ensoniq KS32, Korg Triton Le + Kurzweil MicroPiano), it's no big deal. Of course, I MIDI the KS32 to the Micro + change the sounds on the Micro manually (by turning the knob!), so I'm not al that sophisticated, MIDI-ually speaking...

 

[daviel]

GigMan - I am an old Voce afficianado. I've owned a Voce microB, a Voce V3 with 2 sets of drawbar controllers, and I just sold a Voce V5 - run through a Speakeasy Classic preamp. I've used Voce since about 1993 and I let it go only when I got the Hammond/Suzuki xk3. The xk3 is the best organ clone I've ever used. It sounds good through the Speakeasy Classic or by itself. Lately I've been using the pre-amp 'cause I hate to think I wasted the $400.00. No, it does sweeten up just about any sound. I use an E-mu vk6 vintage keys board as kind of a small, one-does-all board, its cp70, wurlitzer and rhodes and b3 samples work just fine. I guess that's how you'd use an Electro. I find I'd really rather use an instrument that's dedicated to each job, so I go with the xk3 for organ and the Kurz pc1x for piano and ep when I'm serious. I'm a fan of the micro-piano sound too - I use an sp88x [that used to control the V5] which uses the micro-piano processor, if I leave the pc1x at home.

[GigMan]

Cool - where do you play out?

[daviel]

Around Dallas as they come up, maybe once-twice a month. I'm playing a blues thing, with a guy I was in a band with years ago, 9-24, "Junior's Roadhouse Allstars" at Lota's Goat, a beer joint in Dallas. I do some frequent church gigs with a band called "Lone Star Glory - St. Paul's house band" in Ellis County, south of Dallas.

How do you like the ks-32 - I always was a fan of those - I used to have an ensoniq KT-76 that was a good heavy duty weighted 76 key synth.

[dan88z]

 

Originally posted by S80Bob How is the electro at simply playing patches from a sound module? Should be simple right? After all, it has MIDI out.

 

 

Bob, playing sounds in a module from the Electro is easy enough. The thing that is not so good is there is barely any midi control aside from note on/off. There is a midi volume knob on the top right side of the Electro, but that will also change the level of your Electro sound (aside from the Electro master volume). That knob is better suited to setting up consistent volume levels between the internal Electro patches.

 

If you are going to keep the module sitting on the Electro, then you can use it's volume knob to make adjustments. When you put stuff in a rack that is not as easily accessible, thats when it's not so good.

[S80Bob]

So far, I don't use a rack. I really like to travel as light as I can. But if that ever changes, that's when a good controller will be seriosuly needed. I'm going out tomorrow on a music store run. Gonna hit up as many as I can in one day. I really have to feel these boards to know if it will truly make a difference for me. I've never learned the b3 techniques, so this might actually be an advantage to me.

 

Also Gigman, I did bring my S90 to my last gig, It'd internal B3 sounds worked perfectly fro that gig. My organ work will almost always be in the background, chording for the most part but adding quick little counter melody stuff in between the lyrics when the guitar player isn't doing the same thing. The S90 sounded great but the heavy 88's didn't lend themselve too well. I will still use the S90 until I can figure out what's best for me. It too has great EP's and acoustic Pianos. I really love the feel and sound of my S90.

 

I'm just looking now for an great second board that could cover the B3 stuff, give me sold midi control, have 76 keys and come with usable strings/pads and eps. I'm really leaning hard at the Kurzweil PC2. It would be perfect if I could play the b3 techniques well enough to get by with application I mentioned in my last pararaph.

 

Hopefully I run into a PC2 this weekend. That ought to tell me. I'm not too sold on the Nord as of now. the lack of midi control worries me. Also that bottom E note that's missing cause it's a 73 note keyboard, is freaking me out. . Hopefully I'll hear and play one this weekend too.

 

Peace all and thanks. This thread has been helpful

Bob

[brewgoodbeer]

I think of lot of good points have been made, but I decided to way in anyway. I recently purchased a VK-8M. At the same time I purchased a Kurz PC1x. I run the VK-8M via an old ensoniq EPS. I have plastic spring loaded keys. While they are not waterfall, they work well. I think that an electro and anyother keyobard of that nature is a lot of money just to get the waterfall keys. If you have an old midi keyboard with spring loaded key, while not perfect, is more than optimum. My PC1x has the KB3 Mode and the sounds are great. However you cannot play the keyboard properly. You just cannot facilitate B# techniques on a weighted heavy keyboard.

 

The VK-8M has all the sounds, leslie controls, even the grundge. I run it through a motion sound KT-80. I have the choice of clean or I can overdrive the tube side.

 

If you have an S90, pick up the VK-8M and run it via an old spring loaded keyboard. You do not need a ton of midi control. The only drawback to the VK-8M is the positioning of the d beam if you are left handed. I am. I cover the beam on the way to the volume control. You need to use a footpedal. It also is a desktop unit. This makes it a little cumbersome to place in your rig. Both of these downside issues can easily be overcome.

 

Unless you have the extra $500-$1000, while the electro and Pc2 are great boards, I would save the cash and go VK-8M.

 

just my thoughts

 

Cheers

[noisestudios]

I use a PC2 at work.

 

I like it considerably better than the S80 I had before that.

 

The organ patches are very nice, but the key action can be a little awkward. Make sure you set the pedal to be a drawbar, because in the presets it's a sustain pedal (absurd for an organ)

 

There's a very convenient "rotary" buton next to the 4 sliders that turns on and off your Leslie.

 

If you'll be doing more than organ, I HIGHLY Recommend it. Some of the best strings I've ever heard on a synth. And nice pads too.

[GigMan]

Originally posted by S80Bob I'm just looking now for an great second board that could cover the B3 stuff, give me sold midi control, have 76 keys and come with usable strings/pads and eps. I'm really leaning hard at the Kurzweil PC2. It would be perfect if I could play the b3 techniques well enough to get by with application I mentioned in my last pararaph.

 

Sounds like a PC2 is just what you're looking for - except that it has piano-style, not organ-style keys.

 

I say if you can live with that, then go for it. If not, then check out the Nord Electro and don't obsess over the missing low E key...

 

Electro does NOT do strings, though...

[CaptLego]

 

Originally posted by S80Bob I'm just looking now for an great second board that could cover the B3 stuff, give me sold midi control, have 76 keys and come with usable strings/pads and eps. I'm really leaning hard at the Kurzweil PC2. It would be perfect if I could play the b3 techniques well enough to get by with application I mentioned in my last pararaph. Bob

 

 

Hmmmm... you already have an XP-80, which has good strings and pads, 76 keys, and it is an outstanding midi controller. Maybe you should check out the keys of 60s and 70s for some nice B3 sounds?

[GigMan]

Also -

Have you considered a used Roland XP-30?

 

It has synth keys, much easier for "organ moves" such as swipes, smears, etc...

 

Plus it has some real nice sounds: incl. organs, as well as strings, horns, etc...

[S80Bob]

Thanks brewgoodbeer and noisestudios for jumping in. And thanks again to all those who keep posting. I know I'm a little obsessive about some things

 

I went out and played Roland VR-760, VK-8, VK-7 and Korg CX3.

I think I'n rulling out the VR-760. I was not impressed with the piano section. I know maybe I needed to put more time in the board. Here's what I didn't like I was playing a EP patch and turned on the "wah" effect and it was very tricky to control the sound, the basses were way too quite so I bumped up the volume, then striking a key in the middle register jumped way too loudly. Too many volume spikes. Then switch pathc or rather changing the effect and the whole piano was too loud ( I had the volume up from before). I couldn't get a good inspiration from it ya know?

 

I played the VK-7 side by side with the VK-8, same drawbar setting, same effects settings and I thought the VK-7 (used) sounded fuller. Wierd huh? They both felt ok, the VK-8 a littel better feeling (same feel as the VR-760). I also happened to play a used Korg CX3. Wow. The feeling was the best and so was the sound. That thing is an awesome B3 emulator! Simply excellent.

 

I also played my son-in-laws PC2X (again) but to dig a little further into how the KB3 mode functions. I wasn't that impressed. This might sound strange, but I really do prefer the leslie controls and the volue controls to be off tot he left end of the keyboard. In this new band I'm playing with, I do not use my left hand hardly at all and prefer to rest my palm on that end of the board with leslie, and volume withint easy reach.

 

I still have to play a Nord Ectro 2. But I'm pretty certain the PC2 and the VR-760 are out of the running. Believe it or not, I also played a Motif ES7 and felt that keybed was nearly as playable as the Korg CX3, certainly better feeling than the Roland boards. It also had about 6 or 7 great sounding B3 patches and the modwheel worked the leslie effect nicely. I know it's not a B3 clone, but it's B3 sound was certainly more than usable for me. So that board has entered the running.

 

Here of course is the other side of the coin.... the dough. I want to find the right board first and foremost, then worry about how to buy it , but money is always a concern for me. I have very little and would have to sell some or all of my current equipment (minus the S90, that stays for sure). I can't sell it all and get a B3 clone or the Nord Electro because I'll loose my strings/pads.

 

It was either brewgoodbeer or noisestudios that is using the VK-8M. I still need to check into that. I do own an XP-80 and a JV-90, Both are good controllers with synthweighted keys. The XP-80 feels a little better, but could fetch more money. I do have the SRX-07 Ultimate Keys in my XV-2020 which has all the wave forms from the "60's and 70's" card. So maybe I should look into the VK-8M and control it with one of those boards. I could probably sell my XP-80 with Session and Orch I boards to buy a new VK-8M, maybe even come out a few bucks ahead if I find a good deal.

 

 

Thanks again all.

Bob

[kikedeolivos]

 

Originally posted by S80Bob ...I also happened to play a used Korg CX3. Wow. The feeling was the best and so was the sound. That thing is an awesome B3 emulator! Simply excellent...

 

 

It is.

[brewgoodbeer]

S80Bob,

 

I was in the same situation as you. I wanted certain boards, but the budget said no way. I agonized over which way to go. I bounced back and forth for a month. I decided to spend less and get the VK-8M and use an older board as the controler. I am so glad I did. It works out great and I saved about $600. I think one of the things we all forget is that our equipment values deprecitate to zero very quickly. However as long as the equipment does what we want it to, we do not need new stuff. It is hard to control the I want urge. I would play the rest of the boards you are considering so you can make an informed decision, and then spend as little as you need to. This way you will be happy with your new gear and you will not financially strap yourself.