Members wheresgrant3 Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 I could post this in the Live Sound/Production but it seems that many of you rarely frequent there, and there are some opinions on this forum I really respect. My band has been discussing adding external effects on vocals for certain songs that could use them. Not for use in every song, just for big songs where fx would be expected. We own and manage our own full range PA so we are forced to control the fx not a soundguy. Against my recommendation our singer bought one of those 'toy" Digitech foot pedal Vocal processors and the results were disaterous. The presets were awful, the levels were inconsistent and feedback ensued. He ended up taking it back the store and we abandoned the idea. Now I just had a thought... I use my Yamaha MG10/2 mixer to send my keys to our main PA and my monitor.... what if I were to set up a mic channel through this mixer that our singer could use just during the parts that he would need delay or chorus. I could use an fx unit through the aux send/return on the mixer and trigger the fx's he needs for him... in effect acting as his sound tech. I'm thinking about trying this out with this little Alesis Nanoverb I have lying around. Of course the Alesis + the extra mixer might not provide the greatest sounding vocal channel, but it's just for occasional shouts and phrases. It's better than cupping your had to your mouth and pretendng to fade out with delay. Is this logical? Has anyone tried this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eatsdrummachine Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 does your PA include a snake with quarter inch returns? seems like routing the FX processor through the main mixing board's send/returns is a good option. also- you could simply rout the vocal signal via a DI box. most have both 1/4" and XLR sends. XLR to snake. 1/4" to your station for FX processing. then you wouldn't have to crank the FX output into the monitors (causing feedback). this is an easy cheap option- the mains would present both a dry and FXd signal, but that's really what most FX processors do anyways. lotsa options. don't even get me started on using a kaos pad! /johnny l mix r Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members the_resonator Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 you're talking about the purple digitech vocal 300 aren't you? if you're just looking for chorus and delay, there are a number of options that are really excellent: line 6 yamaha spx2000 TC helicon makes THE BEST vocal live pedal/solution..it's actually called "vocal live". Unfortunately, it's about 600-780$ there's also their "quintet" vocal rackmount, which is about 200-300$ and the "m300" which is about 100-200$.. I also recommend the SDP-20 by Nady, which is about 80-140$ new (an excellent price). I am gonna guess you're not looking at spending any real money cause of the digitech and all, so the second might be the more viable of those options. If that is the case, i would suggest looking at used solutions like the Ibanez HD series which was available from about 1984-1989. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Allerian Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 One of my friends is the sound guy for this band: http://www.sweettarts.com/ They use plenty of vocal effects and to my suprise, the sound guy is responsible for the timing and application of the effects on the fly. I have to say, he does an awesome job making this gal sound really good live. -Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kooki_sf Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 just wondering.. could you have tweaked the presets on the "toy"? if so, then i think it could have worked with a little experimenting. but dont let the singer do the experimenting._from experience they only jack it up to high and make everyones ears hurt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted September 16, 2004 Author Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 Originally posted by Allerian One of my friends is the sound guy for this band:http://www.sweettarts.com/They use plenty of vocal effects and to my suprise, the sound guy is responsible for the timing and application of the effects on the fly. I have to say, he does an awesome job making this gal sound really good live.-Robert Allerian, If you get the chance, do you mind asking what effects unit they use and how he sets it up? Unfortunately we don't have a soundguy... so if anyone is going to trigger something it's either me or the singer. *edit* Just checked out the sound clips, You're right the reverb/delay sounds great on the singer's voice. We are a similar type band... a little heavier in the setlist. But similar matieral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Allerian Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 Just had lunch with this guy. He said that typically the FOH (Front og House) guy does the effects for everyone ('cept guitarists who are usually doing thier own thing and can't be approached about it ;> ). He uses a TC D-Two. His gear list can be found at www.birklowsound.com -Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted September 16, 2004 Author Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 Thanks. I check out his site. Pretty cool. Gives me some stuff to think about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Allerian Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 Yeah, he does really nice sound reinforcement. I live right near a venue that has concerts and you can really tell the good sound setups from the bad. When SweetTarts play there, it rocks the house with a ton of low end. Tough to beat those Yorkvilles. He's pretty approachable if you want to email a question or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miket156 Posted September 16, 2004 Members Share Posted September 16, 2004 As a solo KB player, I've worked with a harmonizer for years. I started with an old MXR Pitch Transposer which sounded like chip monks, and still have a old Digitech Vocalist table model. I also worked with a studio Eventide for a short period of time, but it wasn't mine. Eventide has a very natural sound but is super expensive. Don't expect to "plug it in and sing". Some of the early models didn't have the plug a key in and play model like some that are available today. But they're not fool proof either. There's too many variables to deal with and you still have to give the harmonizer the style information it needs to "sing" the correct notes with the song you're playing. Example, you wouldn't use Andrews Sisters 40's harmony style for an Eagles song. The "Presets" are set up with a certain style of harmony parts that have to be demoed one at a time to see what fits best for the song you're playing. There are some basic presets with two voices and if you use a keyboard to give the harmonizer the correct chords, it can work pretty well. You can also do a suspended 4th and then slide down the suspended 4th note a half step on the KB while you continue to hold the note you are singing, and the harmonizer will only change that one note. Very cool. I keep it right on top of my ES8 and adjust the balance and volume of the voices as I go along. Its inconvenient in that respect, but feedback on one of the cheaper ones like I have can be a problem if you really want the voices to stand out and play at any kind of volume level. The harmonizer should be used judiciously or it gets old fast. I saw the NAMM demo of the TC Helicon LIVE model and it sounds good. You give it the key you're going to play in and sing. No MIDI KB feeding it the correct chords. HOWEVER, the guy doing the demo for TC HELICON was singing CSN's "Helplessly Hoping", which is a piece of cake for my old Digitech. Its just a matter of selecting the correct harmony style, how many voices you want to sing above or below the lead voice, and singing ON KEY. My Digitech has pitch correction and YES it can be tweaked, you program what notes you want it to "sing" and save it as a song, etc. It can be set up via Midi, turned on an off via a midi sequence and program changes sent to it during a sequence. However, you need to be sure you sing on key and the same every time you do the song or you can get poor results. I find that operating it manually is a fool proof as it gets. I give it the correct chords and adjust the levels on the fly as needed. It has some nice voice doubling effects and you can flange your voice a little if you like too. Cool, especially for how old it is. Its like anything else, you have to work with it and that takes time and a commitment to use it. I'd like to move up to a better sound quality unit like the TC Helicon (although mine doesn't sound to shabby for a 10 year old model that I've worked with extensively) but the LIVE model that they have is foot operated. That doesn't cut it for me. I want it on my keyboard so I can tweak it as I go for the best sound, and be sure feedback is not a problem. A feedback eliminator might be a solution, I've entertained getting a DBX driverack 260 that has a real time analyzer and that might solve some of the potential problems. But mine works well for what I do right now, just would like something more up to date at some point. I'm looking into their PRISM rack mount unit, but I'm unsure if I can control it quick enough from the front panel while I'm singing and playing at the same time. I have to find one somewhere where I can look at it and see how the UI is on it close up. Mike T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted September 17, 2004 Members Share Posted September 17, 2004 It's just a thought: I formerly did a trio act where I had routed the vocals through an old Yamaha DMP-11 midi-controlled mixer. It allowed me to setup mix scenes where any combination of vocal inputs could be sent to the harmonizer or not, plus other effects like reverb. So the lead singer could have harmony and the backup singers wouldn't, or vice versa. These were switchable as scenes from my keyboard, or from a small JLCooper midi controller, or from midi files. I could also tie in light scene changes but that's digressing. I don't know what exists like the DMP-11 now but the idea might be helpful to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Allerian Posted September 17, 2004 Members Share Posted September 17, 2004 Two very informative posts - thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wheresgrant3 Posted September 17, 2004 Author Members Share Posted September 17, 2004 Definately.... I have become more or less the sound engineer in my band... not just because I play synths, but becuase I've spent the most amount of time reading about this stuff. It's tough managing the sound from room to room, place to place, although this is the first band I've been with that works together to get gear setup and a decent soundcheck accomplished before the first set. The Helicon Voice One LIVE to me is the best unit. A complete package for a live band situation... although, Mike, I understand with the footswitch it's probably not the best setup for you. But at $800, it will be until next spring unitil we make the investment for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miket156 Posted September 17, 2004 Members Share Posted September 17, 2004 A harmonizer can be great in a band that doesn't have a lot of good singers. For example, if you have a 5 piece group and only one real lead singer, and one other player that can sing harmony or back up parts, you can set up the harmonizer to just sing with the back up singer. If he can't sing high parts, you can set the harmonizer to sing a third above his voice on background parts and you effectively have two backup singers harmonizing and phrasing their vocals exactly the same. You can use the hamonizer to hit the high notes you can't. The Pro bought out a good point about selecting different singers using the hamonizer on different songs through the mixer. Also, if you have a good PA and an analyzer or a well EQ'ed system, feedback is less of a problem. I have a small system and practice in a small room so I can't just put it on one setting and expect not to adjust it as I go along. I also change to different styles of harmony parts in the same song, so having it on my keyboard is the best way for me to go. It takes more time to program it with midi sequences for each song and I don't feel its necessary. I can effectively play/sing songs I wouldn't be able to touch if I didn't have it. Mike T. Edit: You might want to consider a Real Time Analyzer if getting the proper EQ in every room you play is a problem. The DBX Drive Rack 260 has memory so you can save the settings for each room you play for a flat response in the room when its empty. You can boast the highs a little or whatever to get the sound you want, but a least you don't have to start from scratch everytime you play somewhere. I've been thinking about an RTA because being that I play alone, sometimes I'm half way through the gig before I have it setup right and that's a pain. Its more difficult to play when things don't sound right. I'd rather concentrate on entertaining the people rather than fussing with an unsatisfactory sound. All it takes is more $$$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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