Members Vintagekeys Posted February 19, 2005 Members Share Posted February 19, 2005 Sax You have some good points and some points that are confusing, you are taking what I am saying completely out of context, you are intelligent so I trust you understand the basis of my points. VK, you make it sound like having an opinion about her, is like making some ultimate lifetime judgement of her worth as an artist & human being! It ain't that deep!!! She's got two albums out, and has performed in many contexts on tv & live, so I think anyone is fully able to make an opinion based on that. One needn't do a doctoral thesis on a singer to say if they like them or not! I never said one cannot have an opinion on someone, that is the normal course of life. One can choose to like some one or not. My point is one really cannot judge or seriously critique a persons full musical potential based on 2 albums and a couple of TV and live performances of the same songs on the album. How can you deduce that artists full potential or musical ability, maybe if one was a Classical or jazz music artist, one could possibly do that as there are different rules that govern the release of musical instrumentation vs. Pop, R&B, Rock music, etc.. Case in point before A. Keys came to J Records she was with I believe Columbia, but in order to leave Columbia she had to leave all the songs she wrote which I believe there were dozens. Records companies are in business to make MONEY. they will only allow artist to play and sing what they believe with produce a major return on their investment. It is not about your inherent talent but what the charts like (ie. Audience) . Songs like "My Boo" - A. Keys and Usher. Teeny boppers like that stuff and it produces revenue, lots off it. So us musicians will hear that and be like, What the Hell is this, Is she for real? Where is the depth? If we are to base all musicians on the rates of the charts we would discount a lot of phenomenal artist, who have great talent and song writing skill. Yes, as I DON'T disrespect artists, unless as I said, I feel they are being dishonest.... Your statement above explains my J Lo comments!!! You continue to mix apples & oranges here, bro. I, and I would guess others on the board, and Ms Keys, aren't decimated by criticism. But I, and the others, ARE ticked off by completely misguided & unwarranted criticism, as you have nothing at all to base it on! Ahhhhh!! So what were the guys doing who were calling her "Skank", "Talentless", etc?????? What is the basis. No different from what I did Huhhh? So what is the difference? Contrary to your statement, "others on the board aren't decimated by criticism?" they are decimated, everyone got heated when I took shots at them. Your position was I have not heard any of them play so I really can't take shots? I feel that is the case for us judging artist based on the albums they put out, Are those albums really their total creation or the creation of A & Rs, Execs, Managers, etc.... I thought the same thing years ago about Lauren Hill, until I heard her perform a LIVE acoustics only set on guitar. I never knew she had that kind of depth and talent. I didn't know she could play guitar, as none of the Fugees albums ever featured her playing guitar and writing songs of such conviction and depth. That experience opened my eyes and gave me a new position on criticism, where musicians are concerned. Whether anyone likes or doesn't like someone's music IS OF COURSE "SUBJECTIVE". Even when judged strictly on technical grounds (which is NOT the all encompassing measurement of artistry), not everyone ever agrees as to who is the best! My point is subjectivity is - judgment based on individual personal impressions and feelings and opinions rather than external facts where as objectivity is - judgment based on observable phenomena and uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices. Of course whether you like an artist is somewhat subjective depending on who you are, but when you critique another musician there should be some objective criterion one uses to form the foundation of your critique, thus my statement that it takes some time to see an artist develop and display their array of musical ability. I never stated you shouldn't buy records or go to concerts, those are all part of what we use to critique but only small portions of the big picture. And of course no one can agree on who the best are, that is virtually impossible, and was never my position. Now rather than respond to rest of your other responses to my follow up post, I will assume you have a general understanding of my position. In any event we can agree to disagree. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vintagekeys Posted February 19, 2005 Members Share Posted February 19, 2005 Originally posted by Jeez Wow. I think I'll just sit this out for a little while. VK, you are truly astounding. Forever, Kim. Kim I'll take that as a compliment:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Saxman7 Posted February 19, 2005 Members Share Posted February 19, 2005 VK, I am not taking you out of context, nor do I not understand your points. I just think that many of your points are in contradiction to each other... You say on the one hand that we can all have an opinion on an artist. But, you say you can't really know their total depth, cause everything they put out is dictated by labels, and it may takes years to ever get a "real" picture (not to forget, that the artist also EVOLVES over those years, as well). Well, everything changes, I can list you many artists who's absolute best work, either performance-wise, or more commonly, compositionally, was in their FIRST FEW YEARS of recording! So what would you do in that case? Wait until they've passed their creative peak before making your "total" judgement of their artistry? And who needs or is waiting for, or wants an "ultimate", "correct" final judgement? It's conceptual babble, and as Grace Slick (I think) said, "it don't mean sh*t to a tree"! Now you diss the others for being less than nice in their personal appraisal of Keys, yet yours of J-Lo, tho JUST AS nasty, in YOUR opinion, is "justified". Why is their's NOT justified, at least by THEIR criteria? You can always argue with others as to whether an artist is good or not good, but there IS NOT AN ABSOLUTE "TRUE" ANSWER! That's because artistic worth is ALWAYS, and ESPECIALLY if it's worth a sh*t, SUBJECTIVELY RECEIVED & APPRECIATED! If my music does not TOUCH people in a way that's beyond mere technical brilliance, I've failed... True artistry is what is COMMUNICATED, and how well it's COMMUNICATED! And as someone pointed out, in the example of Neil Young (or Dylan & countless others), it is certainly NOT his great technical singing or guitar playing that makes him the great artist he is. And finally, yes, labels will do their best to force an artist to conform to the labels' own vision of what & how to do what they do. However, how far someone is willing to bend & compromise, is IN ITSELF a measure of how much artistic integrity that individual possesses. I value that, and those others who do, will stay true to their personal vision. No one says major label "fame & fortune" must be more important than one's artistic freedom; and the true artistic/creative giants have overcome or bypassed that obstacle (including Young & Dylan, and many others). I've known too many friends who've had deals, compromised what they wanted to do so much, that they gained neither the musical or MATERIAL gratification they hoped for...... And as for "agreeing to disagreeing"....well VK, your unwillingness to do that is what has fueled this whole debate! You couldn't accept that some would feel about Keys the same way YOU feel about J-Lo....when "right or wrong", you AND they are both right, that that is how you feel. So, hopefully, you can "agree to disagree" with others,......... without having to attack their unheard/unseen artistic skills........cool? PS Where in Chicago are you, I'm originally from there, (southside, 92nd & East End)..... Great music, lousy weather...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SirGarrote Posted February 19, 2005 Members Share Posted February 19, 2005 hhmm......someone attacked me in a post. i guess i'm talentless now and after reading the remainder of the posts, my head hurts nothing i cant stand more than dumb people pretending to be smart. if you dont have a vokabbularry, please dont act like you do. or at least get a better thesaurus. -G Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MuzikB Posted February 19, 2005 Members Share Posted February 19, 2005 So............what was that about Alicia Keys? I think she's CUTE. I like her hair. I did chicks with wild hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mytee2.0 Posted February 20, 2005 Members Share Posted February 20, 2005 drama filled thread about alicia keys, hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vintagekeys Posted February 20, 2005 Members Share Posted February 20, 2005 Originally posted by SirGarrote hhmm......someone attacked me in a post. i guess i'm talentless now and after reading the remainder of the posts, my head hurts nothing i cant stand more than dumb people pretending to be smart. if you dont have a vokabbularry, please dont act like you do. or at least get a better thesaurus. -G This should be easy, 2 Things ! 1. Any Fool can criticize. 2. The best answer for a Fool is silence! With that, I won't waste my time any further with this post!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeez Posted February 20, 2005 Members Share Posted February 20, 2005 I can vouch that SirGarrote is not a fool. Forever, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mytee2.0 Posted February 20, 2005 Members Share Posted February 20, 2005 Originally posted by Jeez I can vouch that SirGarrote is not a fool. Forever, Kim. vote seconded. Face it vintagekeys, your imagery girlfrields musical abilities tend to give people diarrhea. Get over it already... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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