the electronic musician and their relationship to the 'big studio'...

[Unfed]

had a nice little debate(?) a week or two ago on another board that's still got me thinking. it was a conversation that led to someone stating "How many of us have fairly brilliant stuff recorded on {censored}ty minidiscs, badly mixed? The real secret is getting from the song idea to the finished, polished track, and if you think Mr. James (Aphex Twin) recorded all that stuff in his bedroom, you're kidding yourself... that's a *big* studio you're hearing there, along with a couple of producers and engineers, and all of those cost quite a bit of money. It's really hard to do that as a kid in a basement." which immediately caught my attention. i'm not sure to exactly what extent this is true at all. i've generally thought that most of the electronic music made since the 'techno boom' of the late-80s has been produced in some sort of a home (bedroom?) studio and then sent out for professional mastering. i don't even listen to Aphex Twin so i can't really say how he does it, but i just find it hard to see him ever having the need to go into a 'big money pro studio'. as far as i know (please correct me if i'm wrong) Autechre's Incunabula was literally compiled from 4-track cassettes they had recorded at home on minimal equipment. same with u-Ziq (Mike Paradinas, who used a VHS recorder as well) and (i'd assume) most other Rephlex or Warp artists since the beginning. by the early-mid 90s i would think all these guys had ADATs, and it's only gotten more accessible as computer recording has evolved. besides a mastering job, why would most electronic artists have *any* 'need' to go into a big studio?

 

obviously any act with acoustic instruments or a really overblown sound/huge-money contract might be an exception, i'm talking about the majority of techno, house, idm, etc producers out there.

 

any thoughts on this?

[moondad]

I'd say you're absolutely right. I'm pretty certain Aphex and Mike P. won't be using external engineers and/or producers - just their own kit and a mastering suite. Same will be true of most electronica artists, I suspect.

[Boom]

I agree.

 

What does a "big" studio have that a bedroom musician with a good DAW and some decent gear doesn't have?

[John B NYC]

 

Originally posted by Boom I agree. What does a "big" studio have that a bedroom musician with a good DAW and some decent gear doesn't have?

 

 

quallity music.... Im sorry but something like 70% of the dance music out there is mixed terribly... And could really benefit from a professional engineer... Not to mention running a synth through a nice DI box, comp and hardware EQ can sound amazing... Great music can be made in the home studio... But take that same music and run it in a large studio and it only gets better in leaps in bounds.....

[Boom]

 

Originally posted by John B NYC quallity music.... Im sorry but something like 70% of the dance music out there is mixed terribly... And could really benefit from a professional engineer... Not to mention running a synth through a nice DI box, comp and hardware EQ can sound amazing... Great music can be made in the home studio... But take that same music and run it in a large studio and it only gets better in leaps in bounds.....

 

 

Good point, but there's nothing stopping a bedroom musician from using a DI, a good comp and EQ. It will cost a few bucks, but by looking at some gear lists here, it's not out of reach for many home studio users.

 

As far as "professional engineer", yeah there are alot of bedroom producers without a clue, but there are some who can mix as good as any pro.

 

I've heard plenty of bedroom mixes that sound better than most stuff on the radio.

[HuskerDude]

Originally posted by Boom I agree. What does a "big" studio have that a bedroom musician with a good DAW and some decent gear doesn't have?

 

Better than decent gear.

Until you're heard, side by side, the difference between consumer and pro-sumer gear and real, high end pro gear it's difficult to understand.

My band was just in the studio, and going even from high end plug-ins at home (Bomb Factory vers. of 1176 and LA-2A comps, API EQ's, etc) to the real thing, not to mention an optimized monitoring environment and probably better AD/DA's than most folks have in their houses made such a massive difference.

You can get away with doing everything at home, but the results in a real studio are audible.

[HuskerDude]

Originally posted by Boom I've heard plenty of bedroom mixes that sound better than most stuff on the radio.

 

To be fair, most stuff on the radio sounds like {censored}. Mostly due to the "volume wars" of late and the extra limiting that radio stations put on their signals.

[rjx]

 

Originally posted by Boom I agree. What does a "big" studio have that a bedroom musician with a good DAW and some decent gear doesn't have?

 

 

LOL!!!!

 

EXPERIENCE They are professionals at what they do for a living. I doubt that you are a professional recording, mixing, or mastering engineer.

 

The gear comes after the excellent skills of the engineer. We can all own the same gear as the big studios if our budget allows, but that doesn't mean that it will sound anywhere as good.

[aztechno]

I think it all comes down to if you like it or not, you could re-mix until the end of time to get the perfect master, but does it really matter?

 

Look at the gear they used in the 60's and 70's, why do some people still like vinyl? Because it's real...

 

Personally I write techno/trance but I don't use a sequencer...it's mostly "stream of consciousness" and then I'll use ACID to mix on.

 

In the end it should just be you and your music.

[Unfed]

well, you guys quickly got off point. of course there's tons of mediocre 'bedroom musicians', the question was whether or not the 'pros' in the field are bedroom musicians themselves. name names and their recording methods for well-known albums if needed.

 

i know that in the hip-hop community (as seen on the MPC forums) there's alot of mystique around 'tracking in the big studio', but don't get this feeling from techno, etc producers.

 

aztechno - what the heck are you on about?

[Jeez]

Interesting.

 

I have heard that at least Fat Boy Slim and The Prodigy use professional studios to mix their albums.

 

I think it's a combination of better-sounding gear and the skills of an experienced engineer that make the difference. Not one or the other, but both together.

 

Forever,

 

 

 

 

Kim.

[Unfed]

well yeah, Fat Boy Slim, the Prodigy, Chemical Brothers, etc might fall into the 'really overblown sound/huge-money contract' category that i mentioned above. that's the thing though - where is the line drawn? if there's really not many producers besides those on big labels making use of bigtime studios, when did they 'stop' or when did the home/bedroom studio become a viable alternative. was early-90s Plus8, etc techno tracked in big studios or just mastered there? was 'Selected Ambient Works...' the work of engineers and co-producers with years and years of experience?

[Boom]

Originally posted by rjx LOL!!!! EXPERIENCE They are professionals at what they do for a living. I doubt that you are a professional recording, mixing, or mastering engineer. The gear comes after the excellent skills of the engineer. We can all own the same gear as the big studios if our budget allows, but that doesn't mean that it will sound anywhere as good.

 

Yes they have experience, but so do some bedroom producers. I've been mixing for 6 years and I think I can hold my own with mixing. I don't do it for a living, but neither do 90% of the graduates from audio engineering courses.

[Boom]

Originally posted by HuskerDude To be fair, most stuff on the radio sounds like {censored}. Mostly due to the "volume wars" of late and the extra limiting that radio stations put on their signals.

 

lol, that's the whole reason I posted. I heard Gwen Stafani's version of that old 80's tune and it sounds {censored}ing horrible. Anyone can make a mix like that at home with Fruityloops, some plugins and a slew of Waves limiters.

[Umbra]

I don't think a pro studio has that much to offer to an electronic musician other than experience. I don't think the gear at a pro studio adds all that much beyond what most well equiped home users have.

 

At this point I don't think there is all that much difference between gear-wise between a home user with 10K of synths and effects and a pro studio's gear. At best your only going to sound a little bit better, but definately not worth the cost.

[pgunders]

 

Originally posted by Unfed i've generally thought that most of the electronic music made since the 'techno boom' of the late-80s has been produced in some sort of a home (bedroom?) studio and then sent out for professional mastering. i don't even listen to Aphex Twin so i can't really say how he does it, but i just find it hard to see him ever having the need to go into a 'big money pro studio'. as far as i know (please correct me if i'm wrong) Autechre's Incunabula was literally compiled from 4-track cassettes they had recorded at home on minimal equipment. same with u-Ziq (Mike Paradinas, who used a VHS recorder as well) and (i'd assume) most other Rephlex or Warp artists since the beginning. by the early-mid 90s i would think all these guys had ADATs, and it's only gotten more accessible as computer recording has evolved. besides a mastering job, why would most electronic artists have *any* 'need' to go into a big studio? any thoughts on this?

 

 

Yep, I think you're right. All the interviews I've read with artists like Autechre, u-ziq, Monolake, etc. indicate home studio environments.

 

Mastering is a different matter. I'm just guessing, but I suspect the majority of commercially released artists, including electronica acts, pony up for professional mastering.

[rjx]

Originally posted by aztechno I think it all comes down to if you like it or not, you could re-mix until the end of time to get the perfect master, but does it really matter?

Remixing an electronic song, or an already existing pop/rock song into something new is completely different than a studio engineer remixing a song.

 

The remix (electronic music) is basically taking elements of an already existing song and creating a new song. The remix (mixing engineer) is just that, a re mix. Or a do over.

 

"you could re-mix until the end of time to get the perfect master, but does it really matter?"

As far as if it matters, well yes. If you are trying to sell you're music, or are an artist on a label, quality most definitely matters. But if you are a bedroom musician doing this for a hobby, then its probably not wise to shell out for studio time.

 

But as far as going on until the end of time looking for something perfect, that not what its about. You will spend lots of time going back and fourth and redoing {censored} scratching you're head trying to make a crummy sound better if the tracks were recorded {censored}ty. But if the engineer starts off with something that already sounds good, it should be easier and much faster to make the tracks sound much better than they did.

Originally posted by Boom I don't do it for a living, but neither do 90% of the graduates from audio engineering courses.

One thing the schools can't teach is real world experience. Yes you might walk away with a wealth of info, but someone who was taught by the book as opposed to someone that has been in a studio for years and years doesn't come close to being similar IMO.

 

Its like learning how to play baseball in a years time or less. Yes I can hit the ball and throw. Yes I might even know all the rules. But when it comes down to getting in the line up and playing in a real world situation with whatever issues may pop up and knowing how to deal with it is another thing. You can't learn that in a school.

 

I'm getting way to off topic.

 

And this isn't directed at you, but mixing for a certain amount of years doesn't necessarily mean you could mix on a semi or professional level.

 

Originally posted by Umbra I don't think the gear at a pro studio adds all that much beyond what most well equipped home users have.

So what you are telling me is that a Behringer composer, Alesis 3060, DBX 166, will sound not sound much different from an Emipirical Labs Distressor, Chandler TG1, or a Manley Vari Mu? A Neve 1073, DW Fearn VT-1, or Crane Song Flamingo will sound just a little better than a Mackie pre, PreSonus Blue Tube, or a SM TB202?

Originally posted by Umbra At this point I don't think there is all that much difference between gear-wise between a home user with 10K of synths and effects and a pro studio's gear.

So you are comparing synthesizers and lower level effects to top of the line compressors, eq's, converters, consoles, etc? Wow.

Originally posted by Umbra At best your only going to sound a little bit better, but definitely not worth the cost.

The difference can be night and day.

[Umbra]

 

The difference can be night and day.

Nope, the difference is a good engineer vs. a not so good one. Even the crap gear now is as good as the high end stuff from 20 years ago. Most people doing electronic music are mostly native and using soft effects. There are no noise issues, there are no gain issues. No need for high end mixers (no need for mixers at all), no need for high end pre-amps, no need for high end hardware effects when there are native and DSP based one's that are noiseless and sound decent.

 

The best the gear at a real studio is going to do is make you sound a little bit better. It's engineering and production that matter.

 

Most of the stuff comming out of pro studios these days doesn't sound all that hot either with {censored}ty over compressed vocals, no dynamic range, harsh highs.... If that's what you get with pro gear then no thanks.

 

Other music where acoustic is involved is a different issue.

[aztechno]

Unfed,

 

I just babble most of the time...

 

 

Back on topic...I believe Moby does most of his stuff out his home studio. IIRC, Prodigy's last album was done almost completely in Reason.

 

BT holds the world's record for most edits in a song...does this make it any better?

 

I might be wrong in this assumption, but Techno grew out of the bedroom studio, it's when people started throwing out big money for remixes that it lept into the studio.

 

Does owning a Ferrari make you a better driver? If you can't drive in the first place it doesn't matter.

[John B NYC]

 

Originally posted by aztechno Unfed, Does owning a Ferrari make you a better driver? If you can't drive in the first place it doesn't matter.

 

 

but you get laid more...

[aztechno]

Can't argue with that logic...

 

(BTW...that quote wasn't directed to Unfed)

[Darkstorm]

Might be wrong, but thinks large percentage of the very good electronica only gettable via internet downloads is done with nice bedroom studios. Groups like New Deal, Lotus, Soundtribe sector9, and other pro livetronica band stuff.

[aeon]

Unfed:

 

I am very familiar with the school of electronic artists you are referring to...and by and large, most all of that stuff comes from the bedroom.

 

That said, certain albums in the genre have been recorded on what could only be described as pro studio gear...small-format vintage analog desks and channels, sweet pres, high-end reverb tools...

 

In any case, most "pros" can't mix that genre/style anyway. It has to be done by the artists themselves.

 

 

cheers,

aeon

[hyperstationjr]

Well, as I recall, one of the Autechre boys went to engineering school, and so I'm sure he has a little know-how. COuple that with years of putting out albums and he has enough to put together a nice mix.

 

I kind of feel like studios are mainly for people without any gear for the task, the rock band, or a hip hop producer or pop singer or something.

 

But as far as electronic music... most of us have the equipment to do it. Sure we aren't all running through SSLs and Neves, but most of us have some good quality sound cards and synths which make sounds we like. They may not be the "BEST" sounding, but I think that's the fun in the electronic music area... you have artistic licenses to record line noise and a phaser and call it a song or whatever you want.

 

It is in this area I feel like the "Pro Studio" has little to no use. If you can get your ideas recorded on a recording setup that costs, say $2000-4000 (reasonable when you consider DAW, audio card, monitors, etc...), then usually, people don't care.

 

Honestly, a lot of "Pro Studio" stuff is for fellow recording people... you think the schmuck on the radio gives a {censored} if you used a behringer or an SSL? could they even tell the difference? Not by a long shot. I do think MOOD is important, and in that sense the equipment your using is very important, but if you can get your feeling and ideas across, you don't need those big consoles and expensive pre's.

 

I do agree that an experienced engineer and people who know what they are doing and what they want and how to get it is VERY important, but I also feel like, as a sort of experimental musician, I am responsible for doing that myself. If I had money, I'd send it to a mastering house, maybe invite some people like NIN does (man I'd love to get Alan Moulder on some of my tracks...), but otherwise...

 

I guess in short... I feel like adding the warmth of a tube or whatever else isn't as important to some electronic musicians as say a singer or rock band. It's a different sound, and I think a different aesthetic, and one that is just as legitimately a liberty of artistic license as anything else, either self imposed or due to financial reasons...

 

As for if big name musicians go to big studios, doubtful... I'm sure people like he Chemical Brothers do, they can afford it, and their sound calls for it, but someone like Autechre would be just as at home with a portable recording deck at 44/16 as anything else. Although I do think they probably have the recording equipment of their choice, which is nice.

[Yoozer]

 

Originally posted by Darkstorm Might be wrong, but thinks large percentage of the very good electronica only gettable via internet downloads is done with nice bedroom studios. Groups like New Deal, Lotus, Soundtribe sector9, and other pro livetronica band stuff.

 

 

You've got to tell me why you keep referring to yourself in 3rd person.