"Intuitive" drum programming?

[Chao]

I've always loved working with drum loops, but had difficulty sequencing them from scratch. The ones I created always seemed to either be too sloppy and un-groovy, or too mechanical and dull.

 

I have a Trigger Finger coming in the mail shortly, and I wanted to know what applications or plugins would be easiest and most useful to sequence the loops in.

 

What process do you use to sequence and quantize beats?

[StompBoxLover]

phatmatik Pro is great to 'steal' the feel of your fav drumloops (MIDI Export feature)

 

or use logic audio where you can 'grab' the timing of a loop and save that as a quantize-preset.

 

SBL

[adf]

I admit that I work for the company but you might wanna check out Guru:

 

http://fxpansion.com/product-guru-main.php

 

Quick and easy beat creation with built in effects and stuff.

[Jeez]

Get a crappy mic and record yourself "singing" the beats in your head (beatbox style perhaps?). Then use that recording as a guide to place sampled drum hits.

 

Forever,

 

 

 

 

Kim.

[rjx]

I sequence loops on my RS7000 close to what I am looking for.

 

Then I dump them into digital performer and rearrange things ...copy n paste stuff until I have what I was looking for.

 

Sequencers work well for me most of the time, but the editing that i can do on the computer is gold for me.

[JacoMon]

I have used various samples for years. I added bits of REAL percussion to make it harder to tell l what was what. I even bought a nice Zildjian cymbol to add a REAL cymbol to further the authentic-ness of it all. I finally found the ultimate answer... I bought a set of REAL DRUMS and I am learning to actually PLAY them! I know it sounds absurd. To actually use real Drums to sound like real drums, but that is where I ended up after lots of other means. Not that I will give up programing drums or using samples. I will still use what ever works best. And at this point I may be better at programing than playing. BUT, even thrashing around a bit on a real kit makes you understand drums so much better, that it can't help but improove all your rythmic envedours. I may add triggers to augment the acoustic drums with whatever sound, but knowing how a real drummer puts stuff together (1st hand) is much better than all the other tricks I have found. My 2 cents.

[Sleepin' Deeper]

 

Originally posted by Jeez Get a crappy mic and record yourself "singing" the beats in your head (beatbox style perhaps?). Then use that recording as a guide to place sampled drum hits. Forever, Kim.

 

 

That

[Sleepin' Deeper]

 

Originally posted by JacoMon I have used various samples for years. I added bits of REAL percussion to make it harder to tell l what was what. I even bought a nice Zildjian cymbol to add a REAL cymbol to further the authentic-ness of it all. I finally found the ultimate answer... I bought a set of REAL DRUMS and I am learning to actually PLAY them! I know it sounds absurd. To actually use real Drums to sound like real drums, but that is where I ended up after lots of other means. Not that I will give up programing drums or using samples. I will still use what ever works best. And at this point I may be better at programing than playing. BUT, even thrashing around a bit on a real kit makes you understand drums so much better, that it can't help but improove all your rythmic envedours. I may add triggers to augment the acoustic drums with whatever sound, but knowing how a real drummer puts stuff together (1st hand) is much better than all the other tricks I have found. My 2 cents.

 

 

 

[Chao]

Originally posted by JacoMon I finally found the ultimate answer... I bought a set of REAL DRUMS and I am learning to actually PLAY them! I know it sounds absurd. To actually use real Drums to sound like real drums, but that is where I ended up after lots of other means.

As much as I'd love to do that and as much as I know that'd be an immense help in creating natural-sounding rhythms, I have neither the room nor the saintly patience of others for learning live drummery

 

Do DKFH Superior or BFD have preset kits available for Electro or Industrial music?

[Sleepin' Deeper]

 

Originally posted by Chao Do DKFH Superior or BFD have preset kits available for Electro or Industrial music?

 

 

AFAIK, both are purely geared at acoustic kits, so no electronic sounds there. But lot's of electronic music uses acoustic samples as the basis for rhythm. The you just process a mo-{censored}ets if you wanna go electric or industrial and whatnot.

[hyperstationjr]

You could pick up any of those Roland pads (I believe one even samples) or a DrumKat or similar drum pad. That way you can actually use sticks and bang out some drums, while still being able to use samples ad noises, and not have it be too loud.

 

That seems like the easiest thing to do if your not comfortable with drum programming or banging drums out with a keyboard or MPC-style pads. Although, I do like the MPC stuff. Made an entire hip-hop track yesterday with an MPC and Triton LE, mind you I have never really listened to hip-hop, and I'm not sure if that says more about the MPC pads or hip-hop, but still, you get the idea I think.

 

As far as quantizing and doing my own beats... usually I start off with several tracks on my MPC and loop them, lay down the kick, snare etc all separately while looping, and I just keep adding and adding, making good use of the MPC's auto drum rolls for pretty crazy "drilling" drums.

 

Then all that data is dumped into DP, where I will make several versions of the beat I made, by dropping out parts, adding parts, reprogramming it by hand/mouse, or even doing stuff like quantizing to a weird time sig.

 

Then all that malarky is recorded to audio, where I'll further go crazy, adding effects (usually a healthy dose of flangers and choruses, and bit reduction), and cut up the beats further. Afterwards, I'll modulate the effects over the course of the song for the final touches.

 

That's my BASIC system for making drums. I also will often make drums in my Nord Modular, and have them sequenced within the modular for interesting noises and sounds and patterns, but that is less programming drum sounds and more programming synths. Although, that may still be useful to you, as you might be able to create interesting systems for creating weird drums by setting them up using midi knobs, or even triggering loops of all different kinds with that Triggerfinger of yours (for instance, triggering one part of the drum loop with a pad, and just triggering random pads to spice up the beat).

 

Another HUGE thing I find is letting a LOT of velocity changes, it just seems to make it more realistic sounding if it isn't all the same.

 

Anyways, just my two cents. It seems it just takes a while to get the feel for drum tracks. Just spend time with it and get comfortable, it's not rocket science, but also don't get too into the idea of making your beats and rhythms entirely the way you intended either. Spontaneity is gift...

[Chao]

 

Originally posted by hyperstationjr As far as quantizing and doing my own beats... usually I start off with several tracks on my MPC and loop them, lay down the kick, snare etc all separately while looping, and I just keep adding and adding

That's essentially what I'm looking for, a setup like that where I can use my Trigger Finger and a piece of software that lays down MIDI/samples in a loop instead of an MPC.

Originally posted by Sleepin' Deeper AFAIK, both are purely geared at acoustic kits, so no electronic sounds there. But lot's of electronic music uses acoustic samples as the basis for rhythm. The you just process a mo-{censored}ets if you wanna go electric or industrial and whatnot.

I figured, while I've got a bunch of samples from classic analog machines, I thought it would be neat if the samples could be processed differently based off of pressure/velocity.

 

Oh well, I could always play around with the live kits for a more big beat-trip hop feel.

[Umbra]

or use logic audio where you can 'grab' the timing of a loop and save that as a quantize-preset.

Anybody know if you can do that as well in cubase sx?

[hyperstationjr]

 

Originally posted by Chao That's essentially what I'm looking for, a setup like that where I can use my Trigger Finger and a piece of software that lays down MIDI/samples in a loop instead of an MPC.

 

 

I haven't heard of such a program, but I know that Digital Performer has a loop playback/record mode. Only problem is it re-records over what you just did when it loops. I'm sure there is a "Dub" mode but I haven't found it.

 

At any rate, the point is I'm sure whatever your using would have a similar mode, and you might want to look into that.

 

Also, if your talking about loops, LIVE is great for that, and while I think it's mainly for samples (which still might be up your ally), I know it also now does MIDI, and, I'd bet you could do very similar MPC-style stuff with it. Live and the Triggerfinger would be a great combo I'd think. Look into it, call the company, look up stuff on the web, I'd bet that's your answer.

[Jeez]

 

Originally posted by Umbra Anybody know if you can do that as well in cubase sx?

 

 

Yes.

 

Forever,

 

 

 

 

Kim.

[nexbot]

Cubase SE Special Edition @$59.00:

 

http://www.novamusik.com/search.aspx?type=Manufacturer&keyword=39

 

If you don't mind your programs missing the box and don't mind reading the manual in pdf format, you won't find a better, more cost effective solution.

 

Cubase is absolutely incredible, and I'm actually considering getting a Trigger Finger to compliment it. I'm using it with DFHS, also incredible, although I mainly make rock/metal.

 

BTW, I bought it when Novamusic was charging $69, and I thought I was getting a good deal!

 

Don't forget to ask for free shipping, that's how I got it.

[keyman_sam]

If you have a sampler, download drum samples from online (there's a free library at breakbeats site).

 

Create a drum kit out of those samples, and pass them through effects.. keep tweaking the effects until you got the "freek faktor"

 

Then, start sequencing. Record on loops and enable quantizing while recording.

 

Good luck.

[Meatball Fulton]

Originally posted by Chao I've always loved working with drum loops, but had difficulty sequencing them from scratch. The ones I created always seemed to either be too sloppy and un-groovy, or too mechanical and dull.

 

I hate to say this but....

 

If you want drum sequences that aren't dull you need to understand how to play the drums

 

Having a good sense of rhythm helps, too.

[Chao]

Originally posted by Meatball Fulton I hate to say this but.... If you want drum sequences that aren't dull you need to understand how to play the drums Having a good sense of rhythm helps, too.

Hah! I wouldn't mind training, but it's not realistically possible at this time. I can play hand drums passably, doumbeks, etc. I have difficulty making natural-sounding rhythms by sliding ticks around

 

I suppose I'll just have to let a VSTi soft drum machine/sampler play back the samples as I play and record MIDI data.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Chao Hah! I wouldn't mind training, but it's not realistically possible at this time. I can play hand drums passably, doumbeks, etc. I have difficulty making natural-sounding rhythms by sliding ticks around .

 

have you considered using your hnd drums as triggers

 

I've used pintechs in the part specifically for the interface (ie sliding inde markers just not doing it for me)

 

I suppose with hand drums a multi-zone trigger approach would probably be best (much like snare sensors)

 

 

why isn't training/practice possible for you?

[BOBA JFET]

Originally posted by Meatball Fulton I hate to say this but.... If you want drum sequences that aren't dull you need to understand how to play the drums Having a good sense of rhythm helps, too.

 

Nah. That's not true at all. It's easy to create exciting and creative drum sequences without having any clue how to actually play drums.

 

But it is a lot harder (not impossible) to create realistic drum sequences.

[urbanscallywag]

Originally posted by BOBA JFET Nah. That's not true at all. It's easy to create exciting and creative drum sequences without having any clue how to actually play drums. But it is a lot harder (not impossible) to create realistic drum sequences.

I agree. Maybe that's what he was trying to say, realistic drum patterns are only really possible if you have drumming experience. To make cool patterns in general, I don't think you have to be a drummer. All you need is creativity and maybe some patience.

[Sleepin' Deeper]

Originally posted by urbanscallywag some patience.

 

The A, B, C and D of drum programming!

[Chao]

Originally posted by MorePaul have you considered using your hnd drums as triggers

Nah, I don't really like Drummagog or any of those other methods.

why isn't training/practice possible for you?

Don't have the kit, the room, or the drummer friends, working fulltime with multiple 14 hour shifts per week, AND taking classes to graduate college

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Chao Nah, I don't really like Drummagog or any of those other methods. Not familiar with brumnagog, you can alwayspunt to a regular old drum brain for encoding Don't have the kit, the room, or the drummer friends, working fulltime with multiple 14 hour shifts per week, AND taking classes to graduate college

 

hear ya on the time - done that myself a couple decades back!

 

as far as the workloadsounds like you simply might not have the time for music, if you are dissatisfied with the programming, consider using the instruction tim *AS* your programming effort

 

 

as far as facilities - that's where still being in college can REALLY be of help as the practice facilties (yes, for non-majors too) and even instruction!

you may be the perfect candidate for a teaching ladder type situaton within your school! (hey, how do you think I learned my basic beatzzzzzz!!! -- sure wasn' raw talent )