Members pB0t Posted July 16, 2005 Members Share Posted July 16, 2005 I think a more useful comparison would be # of units sold rather than the number of companies selling them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clusterchord Posted July 16, 2005 Members Share Posted July 16, 2005 Originally posted by Kirumamoru VA is cheaper, more reliable, and "good enough" for live or 44.1kHz/16bit CD's.... i guess you mean that if VA has 44/16 bit output that automatically implies it sounds good enough for a medium of the same resolution. oh, if it were only that simple .. i couldnt disagree more with that logic. this kinda jumps over the cathegory of "sound" completely. good sound is not defined with end medium as it is with its source. truth is you can always discern between better and lesser instrument, regardess of the medium, even listening to crappy phillips casette - you can still hear the difference in recording production of, for example, pat metheny and some local wanna-be jazz band.. in sound of piano, guitar, bass, synth whatever.. diferrence in Stradivaruius and school violin etc.. of course, if you go out of your way to disquise and mask the signal to unrecocgnition to prove the point of "good enough" - that defeats the purpose of great sound/intrument/performance anyway. but even in potentially masking, chaotic situation like mixing 48+ channels , every pro mixing engineer knows, it is much easier to mix 48 channels recorded with top performances and top instruments thru high end pres than crappy performances/intruments/pres/rec chains.. so, it does matter. Originally posted by Kirumamoru I don't know, I really think RA is basically a niche market. i do however agree that RA is niche market if were talking semi-pro and home users. BUT if were talking pros and recording artists who actually sell records and live of it - then RA is more mainstream then it ever was !! looking at these two markets, you'll get drastically different figures for VA/RA sales ratio. i'm generalizing of course.. but more or less, wherever quality is of issue for producers , electronic and other artists searching analog sound, RA is still and will always be the primo game in town.VA, if used, its more because of its idiosyncracies (pardon my english) and special sounds, than as a replacement for RA. VA has, relatively speaking, logically found home more in many home-recorded, mass produced, trance/techno and kin styles , where quick mass production slowly took weight over quality.. and in live performance as you pointed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kirumamoru Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by clusterchord i guess you mean that if VA has 44/16 bit output that automatically implies it sounds good enough for a medium of the same resolution. oh, if it were only that simple .. You know, I kind of feel like that's actually not what I was saying... and I went back and checked my post, so yeah.... What I said, and what I meant, is that VA's are good enough for CD quality and live performance. I didn't say anything about D/A converters or internal processing resolution or anything like that. I think that most people would agree that the Ion has essentially alias-free output if it's properly updated. Therefore, as far as aliasing is concerned, the Ion is going to sound at least as good as a real analog synth, and maybe even better, depending on the kind of sound, because the RA will be outputting frequencies above the 22kHz cutoff that will cause nasty inharmonicities. Whether you're going to hear the subtle "live" aspects of the sound caused by random elements in analog circuits still depends on how busy the mix is, and nowadays VA synths try to simulate that sort of thing anyway. Hell, even the Roland XP series had an "analog feel" setting. Kiru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John B NYC Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Id love to own a modular sure you can something that sounds near the same, But does it look the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clusterchord Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by Kirumamoru I didn't say anything about D/A converters or internal processing resolution or anything like that. neither did i. ?? dont be offended, but, you clearly implied that "VA is good enough for CD 16bit/44" so logically i concluded you mean one can only enjoy the "advantage" of RA if one listens to a medium of greater resolution (beyond human hearing i guess??). which would be totally incorrect. otoh, if you wanna say that VA and CD have the same frequency range that is correct, but we werent talking about that. we talked about issue of SOUND of VA vs. RA. no bits and SR there. that is a much more complex issue, impossible to evaluate by denominating it to pure resolution of DA converter. good AD/DA serves only to preserve as closely as possible what you create on sound-generating level - regardless of is it pure beauty or outmost crap. I think that most people would agree that the Ion has essentially alias-free output if it's properly updated. Therefore, as far as aliasing is concerned, the Ion is going to sound at least as good as a real analog synth, and maybe even better, depending on the kind of sound, because the RA will be outputting frequencies above the 22kHz cutoff that will cause nasty inharmonicities. um.. AD cannot catch anything above nyquist frequency one way or another. there can't be any of , how you put it, "nasty inharmonicities", otherwise you would have those from recording natural instruments and voice as well. dont you think any of the acoustic instrument produce something above the human hearing range?? but of course they do. not in fundamental freq, but certainly in its harmonic and un-pitched transient material... AD's sampling frequency and bit depth decide how often it will take the 'sample' and that's it, data that it doesnt "take" has absolutely no implication on data taken. i think you mixed up the aliasing phenomena that happens in DA converters (or digital summing devices) - when original already digitized signal is to be played thru a DA system with lower freq than his, therefore thru a system incapable of showing the original signal in its entirety. what happens is it gets numbers describing harmonics higher than it can represent and it starts counting from the other side of its representable range (minus) to attempt to "show" them. thats how you get low freq distortion or aliasing. thats why they invented anti aliasing filters - its a brickwall filter that , within digital domain, filters the incoming original signal to the Nyquist frequency of the target sampling freq. thats how you protect yourself from aliasing artifacts. in practice this often happened with early samplers: for example you played C note with a sample at 35kHz and it goes out thru a 35k DA - no problem. Now, you want to play D with the same sample - using el-cheapo pitchshift algorithm (speeding up) you get the same sample , only now its playback speed is greater than 35k => DA needs to represent frequencies/numbers out of its range => distortion. voila. Whether you're going to hear the subtle "live" aspects of the sound caused by random elements in analog circuits still depends on how busy the mix is, and nowadays VA synths try to simulate that sort of thing anyway. Hell, even the Roland XP series had an "analog feel" setting. imo that "analog feel" stuff all sounds like crap. thinking some little pitch drift algorithm is gonna replace the organic depth of real analog as is oversimplification. it would take to long to explain why it isnt like the real thing.. i think you need to experience real analog vintage synth tweaking away to appreciate the difference. don't take my word for it.. analog synthesizer can be as individual and alive instrument as any of the acoustic instruments. and hence carries the same inherent problems for all attempts to perfectly emulate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kirumamoru Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 I don't want to argue with your points about the superiority of the RA sound over the VA sound, since I tend to actually agree with you, but there are some things you've posted that are not technically correct. Originally posted by clusterchord neither did i. ?? dont be offended, but, you clearly implied that "VA is good enough for CD 16bit/44" so logically i concluded you mean one can only enjoy the "advantage" of RA if one listens to a medium of greater resolution (beyond human hearing i guess??). which would be totally incorrect. If there are advantages to the RA sound that don't involve frequencies that the recording medium can't handle, sure. If you feel that VA's just can't get that warm, live, organic sound, then obviously RA is superior for you, and I'm not going to argue with this. Originally posted by clusterchord otoh, if you wanna say that VA and CD have the same frequency range that is correct, but we werent talking about that. we talked about issue of SOUND of VA vs. RA. no bits and SR there. that is a much more complex issue, impossible to evaluate by denominating it to pure resolution of DA converter. good AD/DA serves only to preserve as closely as possible what you create on sound-generating level - regardless of is it pure beauty or outmost crap. OK, but the good VA's these days don't sound like crap. They may lack some of the organic quality to the sound that a real analog synth can produce (indeed, can not help but produce ) but let's face it. Most of the people out there buying CD's can't tell and don't care if that "phat analog bass" is coming from a Minimoog, an Ion, or even a sample on a Triton-Pro-Studio-Ex-LE-whatever. Why spend 2K on a analog synth when you can basically get the sound as part of your 2K workstation that can do everything else, too? I'm playing the devil's advocate here. I like real analog synths. I don't really believe that the Ion is going to capture all the depth of a Jupiter or a Minimoog, just like I don't believe a P-250 or a Promega 3 can capture the depth of a 9' B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrobaby Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 :eek: :eek: Kiru, you have a system 700!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urbanscallywag Posted July 17, 2005 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by Kirumamoru Most of the people out there buying CD's can't tell and don't care if that "phat analog bass" is coming from a Minimoog, an Ion, or even a sample on a Triton-Pro-Studio-Ex-LE-whatever. I disagree. People know a "dope bassline" and "sick ass drums". Whether they know how its done in a studio is irrelevant. It would be interesting to take a rap song and make 2 recordings, one with a Moog/SE bassline, and 1 from VA flavor of the week. Play them both back during a mix of songs and find people's feelings on the songs both times. I'm willing to be there will be a difference of opinion. I'm getting way OT here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rasmus-DK Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by The Real MC Look at all the RA offerings of modulars and monosynths offered by Technosaurus, Moog, MOTM, Buchla, Future Retro, Macbeth, Modusonics, Oakley, Modcan, Studio Electronics, Jomox, Cyndustries, Doepfer, Analogue Systems, Wiard, Blacet, PAiA, Serge, Synthesizers.com, Analogue Solutions and tell me again that it's a niche market. VA is cheaper and more reliable, but the list of companies making RAs tells me there is a healthy demand for RA. Of course, all of the abovementioned are quite small "boutique" companies - but I completely agree - there is an RA demand.. - and to that list, you can add companies like MFB (many at KSS know that I've been lusting for many of MFB's products since 2001-02 ), Vermona, Spectral Audio, ClubOfTheKnobs, Curetronic, Lindhof, Cwejman, and Terratec (who took over distribution of the MAM MB33-II in 2003 as the Terratec SINE MB33-II) etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members synthetic Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Oh yeah, Harmony Central is going to work out just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kirumamoru Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by electrobaby Kiru, you have a system 700!!! No no no.... Though I'd LOVE to own one. I used one in college. Originally posted by urbanscallywag I disagree. People know a "dope bassline" and "sick ass drums". Whether they know how its done in a studio is irrelevant. It would be interesting to take a rap song and make 2 recordings, one with a Moog/SE bassline, and 1 from VA flavor of the week. Play them both back during a mix of songs and find people's feelings on the songs both times. I'm willing to be there will be a difference of opinion. Sounds like an interesting experiment. I'd be curious to know the result, but unless someone can conclusively show that people consistantly prefer the song with RA, regardless of which version they hear first... I still stick to my point. Kiru Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kirumamoru Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by synthetic88 Oh yeah, Harmony Central is going to work out just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urbanscallywag Posted July 17, 2005 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by Kirumamoru Sounds like an interesting experiment. I'd be curious to know the result, but unless someone can conclusively show that people consistantly prefer the song with RA, regardless of which version they hear first... I still stick to my point. Kiru Would be fun. But your point is just as moot as mine, at this time. Now take this AvsD topic elsewhere. I want my duophonic Andromedaness. What would it have been called? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clusterchord Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by Kirumamoru Now here, you're making an error. Analog to digital converters cannot capture any frequencies over the Nyquist frequency, that is true. However, that doesn't mean that that sound information is going to magically vanish. Instead, the A/D converter will still sample the incoming signal every 44,100th of a second (or whatever your sample frequency), and any frequencies over 22,050Hz will be recorded as sound at a lower frequency. you are right and wrong. first, because i took for granted that you know every living AD converter has a lowpass filter on input before the S/H. its a part of the design. so ok yes, theoretically an aliasing on AD would be possible without this LP filter. my mistake.. otoh, all instruments (except digital played thru DA) have harmonics over the hearing range, some less some more, but they're still there. however the LPF on recording AD input takes care of this - it puts the far extreme freqs on -60dB or more, so NO your theory that RA will sound worse digitally recorded than VA doesnt work. that's why initially 44.1 was chosen as a freq. they went with 20kHz as hearing range limit , and added extra 2k of range for LPF slope. you see, it is so far physically impossible to create an analog brickwall filter steep enough to atteunate to zero within a few hundred Hz, and that would also be linear in pass-band. typically they use extra linear 4 pole or 6 pole, and it has a slope that needs the extra freq range to get low enough. at -60dB or more aliasing becomes negligible. thats the theory and practice behind it. so, back to our initial discussion - once more, there is NO difference aliasing-wise in recording a RA or VA thru any standard AD converter. only difference is how they sound to start with, which was point i was trying to make. EDIT: uh, this VA/RA thing wears me out completely, and i always get drawn in. well, i'm out.. rant deleted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members clusterchord Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by urbanscallywag I want my duophonic Andromedaness. What would it have been called? A2 maybe ? Duomeda ? yikes, that's terrible.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Bryce Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by urbanscallywag I want my duophonic Andromedaness. What would it have been called? Andromeduo? dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urbanscallywag Posted July 17, 2005 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Mondromeda sounds cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pighood Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Lemon curry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Bryce Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by pighood Lemon curry? 42... dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pighood Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Are you....the Bryce specialist? NURSE! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Bryce Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by pighood Are you....the Bryce specialist?First Bryce: Is your name not Bryce? Pighood: No, it's Pighood. Second Bryce: That's going to cause a little confusion. Third Bryce: Mind if we call you "Bryce" to keep it clear? dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rasmus-DK Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Now this is great - pighood and Db - I noticed a few monty python comments here - you have a fellow MP fanatic in me.. -let's have more of that spicing up the comments here:) - "what ever happened to the popular front? - he's over there - SPLITTER!!" (I've been watching both Jabberwocky and Life of brian (for the appr. 300th time:o) in the last 3 days..) anyone for tennis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dave Bryce Posted July 17, 2005 Members Share Posted July 17, 2005 Originally posted by Rasmus-DK Now this is great - pighood and Db - I noticed a few monty python comments here - you have a fellow MP fanatic in me.. -let's have more of that spicing up the comments here:) - "what ever happened to the popular front? - he's over there - SPLITTER!!" One of the best ways I know if I'll get along with someone is if they can quote Python. I've got my (almost) nine year old son quoting from the Grail now - we're going to see Spamalot next month (yessss), and I wanted to get him ready for it. I was hoping he'd "get it" and he's way exceeded my expectations. He thinks they're hysterical. I'm so proud... ...but we're definitely getting off topic... dB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urbanscallywag Posted July 18, 2005 Author Members Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by Dave Bryce ...but we're definitely getting off topic... dB Yeah. It could have been marketed as a duophonic modular, real analog! Ugh, why do I go on, I own its mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rasmus-DK Posted July 18, 2005 Members Share Posted July 18, 2005 Originally posted by Dave Bryce One of the best ways I know if I'll get along with someone is if they can quote Python. I've got my (almost) nine year old son quoting from the Grail now - we're going to see Spamalot next month (yessss), and I wanted to get him ready for it. I was hoping he'd "get it" and he's way exceeded my expectations. He thinks they're hysterical. I'm so proud... ...but we're definitely getting off topic... dB I haaaave to riiide my pramaloooot... - I remember watching my first classic python episodes from 1969-70 (incidentally I believe that the Spanish Inquisition (1970), Bicycle Repairman (1969), and their Sam Peckinpah spoof from '71 were some of the first that I saw - "hello Lionel - catch!") when I was 12 and I bought my by now very worn life of brian VHS copy when I was 16 - I totally understand your pride! - and I also have that python Litmus test - all of my serious girlfriends (and most of my friends) have, apart from being musical, been python afficionados.. - but yes, of course, we are getting very off-topic here - is it okay if I post a picture of a nice, obscure German analogue monosynth probably never seen before on KSS? the Lindhof Tsunami Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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