Vector Synthesis?

[dafduc]

I have a Wavestation and a TG-33, both newly acquired - love craigslist!!!

 

Anyhow, I was expecting wild wave magic, and I'm not seeing it so far, or seeing how to get it. I just seem to get two sounds and various levels of blending.

 

Was the Prophet VS better than these? Is the new soft Wavestation any kind of improvement? Any other boards that do vector? Am I missing something?

 

If there are factory patches that shine on the WS or the TG, which are they?

 

It's possible I'm just missing the boat here, but I've re-re-re-re-read the owners' manuals on these, and am not getting it. Am I just too stupid to own a vector synth???

 

Daf

[J3RK]

I haven't really gotten into Vector synthesis. I have a couple of Vector synths that came with my Creamware package. If I'm not mistaken, they are very similar to the Wavestation.

 

I am a HUGE fan of Wavetable synthesis, like the PPG, Microwave, Wave, etc. I always thought Vector synthesis was fairly similar, but perhaps not. I've managed to get some incredible sounds out of my XT, uQ, and some of the Wavetable synths in my Creamware package.

 

Can you sweep through tables of waveforms on the WS? If so, that's going to yield a lot of good results for you. If it IS possible, take an LFO or an envelope, and assign it to the position of a table. When you hit a key, the sound should morph at the speed of the modulator. Still, I don't know if that's possible on those synths. I've heard some cool things that were supposedly made on a WS, though I don't know how they were done. They sounded somewhat similar to an evolving WT patch. I've also heard a lot of cheesey mid-90's style tripe which I KNEW came from the MW, so you may just have to dig deeper.

 

I'm really curious to know what these things can and can't do, compared to something like the XT.

 

I'm going to go see if I can locate a good manual for one of them.

[Unfed]

that's just it - i don't really see why Vector Synthesis is termed as another form of synthesis either. the capabilities of the TG/SY series can be duplicated by most any synth that can run up to four oscillators at once (which i guess isn't too many synths) and control volume via midi CC. it's basically just mixing the levels of the oscillators based on an x/y (or would you say a/b/x/y?) axis. nothing too extraoridnary, though it can create some fabulous evolving textures. i'm sure others can go into more detail, especially danatkorg.

[skijam]

Unlike the XT which lets you sweep wavetables with an ENV, LFO, or continuous controller, and so on, the Wavesation has a dedicated "sequencer" (for lack of a better term) where you choose the waveform, duration, volume, and crossfade time for each step in a wavesequence.

 

The factory patches, natch, showed off wavesequencing in droves. So if you're not hearing da magic then maybe you got a unit which was re-programmed with non-wavesequencing sounds. (?)

[J3RK]

There's a bit of good information here: http://www.danphillips.com/wavestation/ws_faq.htm

 

It looks like you can in fact do various types of wave-sequencing more or less like that on the Microwave. So, you should be able to get some excellent sounds out of your Wavestation.

 

I'm not sure exactly how you do it on that synth, but try loading some simple wavform samples into a wave sequence. Try to arrange them in a somewhat logical order to start with. Something like smooth to harsh to smooth again or something like that. Sine, Tri, Spectral, Square, Saw, Something noisy, Saw, Square, Spectral, Tri. Then use an LFO/EG to sweep through that table. Add a little resonance from the filter, and bring down the cutoff slightly. You don't want to lower the cutoff too far though, because you won't be able to hear the changes as much. Now experiment with the speed of the modulation source a bit, until it cylces at a rate that sounds cool to you.

 

If you combine something like this with some interesting filter envelopes, and other timed effects/modulations, you should be able to get some really cool evolving pads and such.

 

I read a little about rythmic wave sequencing, (which is basically the same thing.) You just use shorter x-fade times between waveforms, and if you sync it to the MIDI clock, it seems like you could get some interesting rythmic sounds to animate a track a litte more.

 

Judging by what little information I've read, I think I prefer the Waldorf implementation, but without trying a WS, (a little more in depth, (I've played with the Legacy version for about 10 seconds, and the Creamware ones for maybe 30 seconds,)) I can't say much more.

[skijam]

You asked for example patches. On the Wavestation, look for "Will I Dream" (play a low note and turn up the modwheel), or, er, um, [ahem] "Skijam" is another one.

[skijam]

J3RK jogged my memory -- if you're not hearing wavesequencing movement from the Wavestation, go to Global Mode and make sure that the sync source for Wavesequencing is set to "Internal" and not "MIDI Clock".

[Meatball Fulton]

The TG33 is pretty low end as vector machines go....you get some simple FM sounds (2 op?) and then some sampled waves in ROM and you can mix between 2 of each via the joystick and the joystick motion can be recorded as part of a patch.Keep in mind something that simple was pretty wild stuff 15 years ago!!!

 

I actually wrote an article about doing this sort of thing using available modulators on the (joystickless) 3-DCO ESQ-1 for Transoniq Hacker magazine.

 

The WS on the other hand goes way beyond that with wavesequencing. Ensoniq had a similar feature on their "Transwave" synths like the VFX, SQ-1, TS-12 although it was more limited.

 

A lot of the factory patches in these machines showed off big filter sweep sounds (digital resonant filters were very expensive to implement with the slow CPUs back then) and layered, airy "new age" sounds. I owned an Ensoniq SQ-R for over 10 years and remember the programming of Transwaves was so frigging arcane that I don't think I ever did anything but use the (pretty good) presets on the box.

[grumphh]

In my opinion there were quite a few buzzwords created in the late 80's/early 90's to make digital synths seem more interesting than they really were.

 

..........

Linear Arithmetics (or whatever, LA "synthesis" anyway) springs to mind.

Wow, you could put a sample in front of a digital sawwave!

Or a Pulse if you were the adventurous type! Variety, hell yeah!

And it even had envelopes! And LFO's! Double wow!

 

But hey, it was digital and new - so obviously much better than anything before it

[cybermooks]

I think the suggestion re Midi Clock setting may be the answer. The other thing is you need to hold a key down for a period of time to hear the sound through. I have both those synths as well as a Prophet VS and each is different. The Wavestation has about the best implementation although you have to get fairly deep into the menues to get to the actual wave sequences.

 

Most of the WS presets do incorporate a lot of wave sequencing, so if you press a key and don't hear sound varying over time then something is wrong; possibly midi clock.

[electrobaby]

Originally posted by grumphh In my opinion there were quite a few buzzwords created in the late 80's/early 90's to make digital synths seem more interesting than they really were.

 

ROFL

..........

Linear Arithmetics (or whatever, LA "synthesis" anyway) springs to mind.

Wow, you could put a sample in front of a digital sawwave!

Or a Pulse if you were the adventurous type! Variety, hell yeah!

And it even had envelopes! And LFO's! Double wow!

 

But hey, it was digital and new - so obviously much better than anything before it

 

wasnt this what the Roland D5 was?? I remember having a piano that sounded like a square wave...wait...every patch sounds like a square wave!!!

[Sealed]

Vector Synthesis is just a kind of simple mixing control, but I think it has some assets;

 

* The balance is controlled polyphonically: When the balance is controlled by MIDI CC, it affects all the voices at once. In contrast, vector sequence works for each voice, and produces complex movement.

 

* The total volume is mostly retained: When I emulate vector controls by other synth's LFOs, the total volume sometimes tend to be uneven.

 

Personally I use vector for adding subtle fluctuation in texture, rather than 'wild' movements.

[Sealed]

I have TG33 and Wavestation SR....

 

TG33:

* To create 'wild wave' you'd better use the 2-OP FM. Edited via PC, the FM section can produce wider variety of sounds.

(See my site for .mp3 sound examples.)

 

* TG33 has two vectors for level and detune. The detune vector is useful for adding subtle chorus effects.

 

 

Wavestation:

* The Wavesequence is more prominent feature than the Vector. Wavetable things can be emulated.

 

* What's better in wavesequence is the crossfading function. Ensoniq's transwave produces much wave-switching noise, and to some extent Microwave does. Wavestation can be more smooth.

 

* Wavestation is a rare PCM synth that has Hard Sync function. This enables emulating 'wild' analog/VA sounds.

[sizzlemeister]

The TG, SY 22, & 33 all have their FM component which is often overlooked. With an editor you can do a lot more with the FM side.

 

I've made some lame attempts to simulate the vector sequencing of my SY22 using a standard ROMpler and as Sealed says the results are not nearly as smooth.

 

If you were to demo the tons of soundbanks available out there you'd realize that these machines have some very special qualities. Even with an editor they're a little tricky to program, and don't seem too deep, but the former is an asset due to the former and you can get some really worthwhile sounds out of them.

 

Right now they're ULTRA cheap and aboslutely worth picking up if you have $100 burning a hole in your pocket.

[Purity_Control]

To get the vector envelopes on the WS to shine you really want a 4 osc patch with an irregular and moderately subtle, vector envelope - have different times to go between each stage and don't sweep too much or too quickly, except perhaps at the very start to build some presence as the note/chord starts.

 

Once you get something you like, it's cool too to save the patch to a different memory location/name, then alter a couple of the PCM waveforms, alter the time slightly on the vector envelope, then layer the two together - you'll get a sound that keeps on shifting without ever really repeating as the envelopes slip out of time with each other.

 

The down side of this is that you're down to 4 voice poly, but you can't have everything:D

 

 

You could get a similar and more predictable result using one 4 osc patch and several wavesequences. A lot of the trickyness in getting the transitions between waveforms to sound congruent is in keeping each one about the same relative volume, and a decent choice of waveforms - some just won't sound well together.

 

The wavesequencing can be good too for weird stereo effects - set up one for each channel, assign each to a one osc patch, then configure the program so they're panned left and right - it works well if you want things to sweep left-right-left and/or change tone at the same time.

[fulcrum]

 

Originally posted by dafduc I have a Wavestation and a TG-33, both newly acquired - love craigslist!!! . . . Was the Prophet VS better than these?

 

 

Here's a pretty good (if CPU-intensive) soft version of the Prophet VS if you're interested in comparing.

[Umbra]

All vector synthesis is is crosfading between oscillators with some automation involved.

 

The power of the wavestation is in wavesequencing and then using vector on top of that.

[Mintbeetle]

For anyone who's interested, I'm selling a TG-33 for $100. PM me if interested.

 

(Dave, go ahead and delete this if you feel it's out of place)

[flowthrough]

 

Originally posted by dafduc Was the Prophet VS better than these? Daf

 

 

The VS is definitely different- I played the TG33 and owned the Wavestation SR. The VS sounds different than the TG33 and the Wavestaton - although I never wanted to believe that, I found it to be true once I had actually played and programmed both.

I think the VS is better- but that's just to my ears. The Wavestation is a great instrument also- wavesequencing and pads are excellent- but not the same as a VS. Never liked the TG33- always sounded plastic and thin/weak to me.

[dafduc]

Thanks everyone.

 

Sat with the WS for a while last night, the preset sounds are really nice! I'm really not getting much from the joystick though. And apparently I really should be in stereo.

 

I'm especially not getting much from the up-down axis.

 

It's very electronic sounding: not in a bad way, but in an I'd-sure-never-use-these-sounds-for-a-blues-jam way, LOL. Which was why I grabbed it last night - for a blues jam tonight. Bad planning, I guess: I didn't make a plan B.

 

I'm hoping the patch exchange idea works out here, I'd love to hear what other folks have done with this. Meantime, I'll go see if I can find some .syx files.

 

Oh, hey, here's a question - are all patch dumps compatible among versions of the WS? I've apparently got the original...

 

Daf

[protues9]

on the factory presets on the wavestatio, I've noticed the joystuick doesn't do much it's actully much more fun if you set it to control the effects sends on one axis and the cutof filter on another

[dafduc]

Cool idea - thanks.

 

I'm such a noob...

[Umbra]

 

Oh, hey, here's a question - are all patch dumps compatible among versions of the WS? I've apparently got the original...

Don't know. But even if it's from the same wavestation if you don't have the correct ROMs for the patches they are not going to sound correct anyway. So you really need to know what cards were used for the patches if any. Also watch out for changing patches, it may screw up other performances.

 

Suprised you like the presets, I think they suck bad, very digital and harsh largely because the filter on the WS sucks bad and the effects suck even worse.

 

If your not running at least stereo out the joystick probably isn't going to do much in many cases.

 

It's really best as an accent instrument these days unless your willing to spend a lot of time programming it.

 

Also if your going to use it with any seriousness dump the WS and get an A/D or a WS EX.

[dafduc]

I like them cos they're different from what I have on my other boards. The WS is one of 15 or so boards in my collection. I know how to tweak most of the others, but haven't been under the hood on the WS yet.

 

Daf

[danatkorg]

 

Originally posted by dafduc Oh, hey, here's a question - are all patch dumps compatible among versions of the WS? I've apparently got the original...

 

 

Wave Sequences, Patches, and Performances from one Wavestation model can be read by any other. If the data relies upon features not present in the destination instrument, the data is altered gracefully.

 

Feature differences include:

 

* Extra effects and Expanded PCM ROM (present in all models except for the original Wavestation keyboard)

* Analog inputs used as "waveforms" (present only in the A/D)

* Third RAM bank (present in the A/D and SR)

* Extra ROM banks (present in the SR)

 

The details on how the data is interpreted by models which don't have a particular feature is too long for this thread, I think. I don't want to put everyone to sleep. :-) If anyone is interested in the full schpiel, you can download the Wavestation developer documentation from this page of my site.

 

Best regards,

 

Dan