OT: Life choices: morality

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Kirumamoru

Whatever dude, you asked.


I, for one, think it's a very good thing that you pipe up and give your opinion


I don't know what the company makes.


That's definitely a problem...even from Uber's standpoint, he knowledge horizon is going to be somewhat limited


I know you said it supports the defense industry. Defense industry basically equals military

Well, that's not necesarilly accurate (at least not in terms of combat capabilities -- the DoD is pretty damn big) and then there's the question of sublimation as well


which is basically involved in hopeless, pointless wars killing people (innocent, or not-so-innocent people still undeserving of death).




Is the work that you'd be doing there far enough removed from people dying that you could live with yourself? If it is, then take the job. If it isn't, decide whether your internship is worth losing your soul over.


You can do whatever you want. You asked for input and I offered you mine.


I think it's completely appropriate

You can laugh at me or make fun if you like, but at least the $8/hr job I do here helps save peoples' lives.


There are even those that think a typical macrobiotic lifestyle is immoral (I was a moral fructarian once upon a time)


Can you say the same for your internship? Can you even say that it won't help make the world a worse place than it already is?


It is a philisophical question surrounding force, security, protection, competition, adversarial confrontation in general.
How do we handle this? When is it right? When is it right to stand aside, when is it right to confront?

there are many answers to these questions

To some, the answer they have arrived at is "yes", to others "no"


because I believe wholeheartedly in what we do here, even if I have some issues with upper management.


I think this may be the same thing Uber is wrestling with
- given the above (and other) parameters - does he feel this could be a positive move


I think it's good that we are all weighing in, but we must be careful as righteousness is weapon prime

[urbanscallywag]

Originally posted by Kirumamoru Whatever dude, you asked.

Way to get defensive. You're right, I asked, and I don't regret doing so.

[urbanscallywag]

Wow, man, lots of assumptions there. I think someone's feeling guilty.

This is a little beyond "is what I'm going to do going to change the world". I chose to be an engineer rather than an activist, or whatever other kind of "save the planet" type folk because I believe I can do more for the world in engineering. I chose to be an engineer because for some reason I tried during elementary through high school, unlike many kids in this nation. I had a good enough gradepoint to get into a college of my choice. I guess the bottom line is I would feel guilty for NOT using my "gifts" in math, science, and reasoning in a field where it would be put to good use. I would be doing the world a dis-service.

How dare you judge me soley upon my choice of an internship. How dare you acuse me of not contributing enough to the world by chosing industry over a more "compassionate" career. You have really attacked me over a simple comment: "I'm glad I asked ;)".

To continue with my earlier thought, I came to the conclusion years ago that the way I myself can best help the world is through electrical engineering. Its what I'm good at. Its what I have an interest in. Maybe someday I will be involved in a project perhaps making a new sort of pacemaker. Maybe a contribution to the world of music like Dr. Moog. Or maybe, I could work in an industry that's not at all related to "do gooders", but I could put my personal earnings and time into better causes in life.

I'm really interested to see the Moog documentary to learn about his life, but reading about him I've found he created his first modular around the age of 29. What did he do before then? I don't know.

The bottom line is I need to gain real world engineering experience, and defense communications just may be not only the lone opportunity I receive, it might be the right one for me, too. I have the rest of my life to change the world.

Oddly enough, a rather large part of my hesistation over this job is because I do see myself getting seriously involved in politics one day. Would I want people digging up my past and seeing that I worked in the defense industry, when most of my values clearly lie elsewhere? I guess that's something I've got to evaluate.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by urbanscallywag Oddly enough, a rather large part of my hesistation over this job is because I do see myself getting seriously involved in politics one day. Would I want people digging up my past and seeing that I worked in the defense industry, when most of my values clearly lie elsewhere? I guess that's something I've got to evaluate.

 

 

just a practical consideration there -- politically, it may very well be to your benefit.

As in "been there so I understand at least some of the workings"

 

IF politics is a goal, definitely keep the discretion part up!

[urbanscallywag]

Originally posted by MorePaul just a practical consideration there -- politically, it may very well be to your benefit. As in "been there so I understand at least some of the workings" IF politics is a goal, definitely keep the discretion part up!

Very right, I could imagine this coming out of my political mentor's mouth.

Perhaps I should pay her a visit/email.

[BOBA JFET]

I didn't really read all of the responses, but here's my take:

Liking your work, your work environment, and your co-workers are all very important things.

Believing in what you are doing is very important.

Nothing has ever saved or destroyed the world yet.

The company's only client is the military. Okay, well...if you are doing what you can as a citizen to try and make it so that the military is doing what you think it should be doing, the rest takes care of itself. It sounds like the company isn't really the problem, it's the client.

A weapon is just an application of a tool. Maybe we're mis-using our tools, but we don't have to, and that's really a totally seperate issue. It shouldn't stop you from helping you to make the best tools you can, if that's what you want to do.

Go for it. Worry about the military with your vote instead.

[urbanscallywag]

Originally posted by BOBA JFET I didn't really read all of the responses, but here's my take: Liking your work, your work environment, and your co-workers are all very important things. Believing in what you are doing is very important. Nothing has ever saved or destroyed the world yet. The company's only client is the military. Okay, well...if you are doing what you can as a citizen to try and make it so that the military is doing what you think it should be doing, the rest takes care of itself. It sounds like the company isn't really the problem, it's the client. A weapon is just an application of a tool. Maybe we're mis-using our tools, but we don't have to, and that's really a totally seperate issue. It shouldn't stop you from helping you to make the best tools you can, if that's what you want to do. Go for it. Worry about the military with your vote instead.

Surprising to see some logic I agree with out of you (consider we usually "agree" to disagree ).

[BOBA JFET]

I should also add, sometimes disapproval of an organization is a great reason to become involved in it as well. Change often comes from within, so get in! If you don't like it, make changes in any way you are able to.

[urbanscallywag]

Originally posted by BOBA JFET I should also add, sometimes disapproval of an organization is a great reason to become involved in it as well. Change often comes from within, so get in! If you don't like it, make changes in any way you are able to.

The organization seems really cool!

 

You were right when you mentioned its the exclusive client I've got beef with. Not the company.

 

The actual product is totally un-war-like though. As I've said, its basically communications.

[BOBA JFET]

Originally posted by urbanscallywag Surprising to see some logic I agree with out of you (consider we usually "agree" to disagree ).

The world is a strange and wonderful place.

[BOBA JFET]

Originally posted by urbanscallywag The organization seems really cool! You were right when you mentioned its the exclusive client I've got beef with. Not the company. The actual product is totally un-war-like though. As I've said, its basically communications.

 

 

I hear you, I just wanted to throw that out - even if you decide(d) that there is something about the company you don't like, that doesn't mean you shouldn't work there. The democratic way is to try and change it, not reject it.

 

Of course the details of *how* to incite change are pretty sticky, and you'd be on your own there. Obviously if one starts an internship and immediately tries to change the whole organization's philosophy, they'll find themselves sunnyside down in the sidewalk pretty quickly.

 

But if there's nothing to change but the client, that's a pretty easy one to reconcile.

[urbanscallywag]

All of this hype better not be screwing over my karma (concerning an actual offer). I would be quite upset.

[BOBA JFET]

Originally posted by urbanscallywag All of this hype better not be screwing over my karma (concerning an actual offer). I would be quite upset.

And rightfully so. They're probably the only cool company in southern california looking for an EE intern.

[urbanscallywag]

Originally posted by BOBA JFET And rightfully so. They're probably the only cool company in southern california looking for an EE intern.

Ha-ha.

You try landing an internship here. There's a bunch of 4.0 UCSD EEs that have resumes that make mine look like it came from Fisher Price. Its so competitive.

[urbanscallywag]

Originally posted by BOBA JFET And rightfully so. They're probably the only cool company in southern california looking for an EE intern.

And if its due to karma and not my qualifications, its for surely a shame!

[Kirumamoru]

Originally posted by urbanscallywag Wow, man, lots of assumptions there. I think someone's feeling guilty.

 

What would I feel guilty for?

 

Originally posted by urbanscallywag How dare you judge me soley upon my choice of an internship. How dare you acuse me of not contributing enough to the world by chosing industry over a more "compassionate" career. You have really attacked me over a simple comment: "I'm glad I asked ;)".

 

I'm not judging you at all. I was asking you questions. And yes, I did come on strong after your "I'm glad I asked ;)" comment. You quoted Unfed's sarcastic response to my post, with a comment that was fine at face value, but the inclusion of the ";)" made your comment into an agreement with Unfed's dismissive attitude. Whether you intended it or not, you were expressing a judgemental attitude towards me.

 

Maybe you screwed up the feeling you were going for with your post. But my response was formulated to match that dismissive attitude of your post. It was not inspired by some feeling of "guilt" on my part, or any desire to guilt you into chosing a career of social work.

 

So, go back and look at the questions I asked you. See if you can come up with answers that you can live with. If you can, then go to it, and good luck. You certainly won't get any criticism from me for pursuing your dreams. Most people abandon theirs, or never dream in the first place. I'd be happy if you are truly doing what you want to do.

 

Kiru

[urbanscallywag]

The guilt's not mine, I have no idea where it came from.

Though I haven't agreed with you in the past I respected you as a forum administrator. Your behavior today has made me question your ability to set an example as a superior, all over a wink.

I sided with Unfed for the reason in my first reply. Do you pay taxes? You might be worse off than I, you're buying the bombs. (I haven't paid taxes in years).

[BOBA JFET]

Originally posted by urbanscallywag Ha-ha. You try landing an internship here. There's a bunch of 4.0 UCSD EEs that have resumes that make mine look like it came from Fisher Price. Its so competitive.

Well, I've got no sage advice for you there. I personally don't play that game. If a company doesn't want you because you don't have a lot of tidy tick-boxes checked off on your resum

[urbanscallywag]

I'm not that insecure about my resume, its just not everyday that I actually get callbacks over it.

Another reason I'm so into the interning thing is because its where I'll shine. I really enjoy lab work...and the one engineer described the job as...lab work. Perfect! I will be able to differentiate myself easily at the workplace, but in black and white I'm no where near the caliber of person that most large companies are after.

I hope interning over a long period of time to give me an upper hand as I approach graduation or graduate level sudies to compete with Mr. Joe Homework 4.0.

[urbanscallywag]

I guess what I was trying to say was I'm not insecure that I'll never have a 3.8, key club, and tennis champion on my resume. I don't ever want to be that person. I'm happy with my 3.1, SCCA, and synthesizers resume!

I was surprised to get a call over this job at all. Most "by the book" mega corporations throw out my resume on first or second round picks. GPA has to be closer to 3.25. Oh well. +1 for this company, they seem to want to look deeper than numbers.

[Kirumamoru]

Originally posted by urbanscallywag The guilt's not mine, I have no idea where it came from. Though I haven't agreed with you in the past I respected you as a forum administrator. Your behavior today has made me question your ability to set an example as a superior, all over a wink. I sided with Unfed for the reason in my first reply. Do you pay taxes? You might be worse off than I, you're buying the bombs. (I haven't paid taxes in years).

 

You posted this thread because you wanted people's input. If considering what I have to say makes you this upset, then you should step back and ask yourself why some words on a computer screen are bothering you so much.

 

It's not my fault that you expressed yourself in a way that you might not have meant to. And its your choice whether to take what I say seriously or not. Its your life and you can do whatever you want to do. But now you're trying to fault me for answering your question, and that's not my fault either.

 

Engaging in personal attacks such as your "I don't think you're qualified to be moderator" is a pretty immature way to handle the situation. Maybe you don't think I'm qualifed. Maybe I'm not. Maybe I don't really care. Certainly, it's not your decision to make. My behavior was less out of line than yours, because even after you started being petty, I was still trying to address the issues that made you post this thread in the first place.

 

As for your tax question, I haven't made enough money in the last three years to pay income tax, and most of my major purchases have been from online stores where sales tax was not applied, though that affects state governments, not federal governments.

 

In closing, I'm going to repeat myself and say once again that if you can take this gig and still be OK with yourself, then you should do it. Really, you shouldn't care what any of us say about it. Just follow your own heart and make the best decision for yourself. In a way, it's a lot like buying gear... you come on here and get advice from everyone, and then you have to try it out for yourself and make your own decision.

 

Kiru

[urbanscallywag]

Wow, again you jump to conclusions. You're quite good at this!

If I'm the wrong one here, I'd appreciate some input from others.

[Kirumamoru]

Originally posted by urbanscallywag Wow, again you jump to conclusions. You're quite good at this!

 

Which conclusions do you think I'm jumping to?

 

Kiru

[urbanscallywag]

I'm petty? You're full of surprises! You've been doing the attacking.

[pgunders]

Originally posted by BOBA JFET A weapon is just an application of a tool. Maybe we're mis-using our tools, but we don't have to, and that's really a totally seperate issue. It shouldn't stop you from helping you to make the best tools you can, if that's what you want to do. Go for it. Worry about the military with your vote instead.

 

 

With all due respect, I think that's a weak argument. If you know--or can be reasonably be expected to know--how a "tool" is going to be applied, then you bear some responsibility for how it is in fact applied. Should guys who build explosive vests for suicide bombers get off with the excuse "Well, gosh, I don't decide how the vests are used"? No.

 

The idea that one's political life is fulfilled in voting is just pathetic. Many people are terrified to admit it, but everything we do is an implicit vote for the kind of world we want to live in.