Members Terje Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 I often hear people say that a good melody really lets you hear the underlying harmony. But lately I've thought that it's not that way. The melody is the "underlying harmony". The chords are added on top of the melody. The meldoy is the short-cut to the harmony and also the deepest aspect of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members evan_02 Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 something to add: improvising around a tune's melody (as opposed to the changes) is something that most people overlook. i'm trying to do it more with my own playing and i think it helps my solos not be piles of {censored}. didn't joe pass say something like "you should always be able to hear the melody in the solo"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Melody is the most important aspect of music, harmony should support melody. Harmony should not be the dominant force in music. In fact, most progressions arise from contrapuntal movement. While the outer shaping of music generally traces a harmonic outline, the inner parts which give music its primary motion is melody and contrapuntal chords. For example, listen to Beethoven. His music is primarily contrapuntal: The motion in his music is created by his manipulation of thematic material, so that it pervades every single note. Successful melody does not require harmony. However successful harmony requires melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted November 17, 2002 Author Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Anomandaris Melody is the most important aspect of music... Nope. Rhythm is. You can have music without harmony. You basically can have music without melody too (I know that percussion instruments play notes too but anyway). But you can't have music without rhythm. Rhythm is supreme. Otherwise I agree with your reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted November 17, 2002 Author Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by evan_02 something to add: improvising around a tune's melody (as opposed to the changes) is something that most people overlook. i'm trying to do it more with my own playing and i think it helps my solos not be piles of {censored}. didn't joe pass say something like "you should always be able to hear the melody in the solo"? Couldn't agree with you more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Terje Nope. Rhythm is. You can have music without harmony. You basically can have music without melody too (I know that percussion instruments play notes too but anyway). But you can't have music without rhythm. Rhythm is supreme. Otherwise I agree with your reply Melody is more important in a compositional sense. You can't generate nearly as much emotion with rhythm as you can with melody. You are totally correct, rhythm can exist without melody (discounting percussion pitch), but it makes for rather tedious music having a guy beat away on a single drum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted November 17, 2002 Author Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Anomandaris You are totally correct, rhythm can exist without melody (discounting percussion pitch), but it makes for rather tedious music having a guy beat away on a single drum. That depends solely on who's beating away on what drum my friend. I've heard people do it on just one drum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Terje That depends solely on who's beating away on what drum my friend. I've heard people do it on just one drum. The point I want to make is that even though music can not exist without rhythm of some sort, it is melody which gives music its expressive power. With that in mind, I believe melody is the most important aspect of good music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted November 17, 2002 Author Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Anomandaris The point I want to make is that even though music can not exist without rhythm of some sort, it is melody which gives music its expressive power. No way! We simply don't agree on this one. Rhythm is so damn important and so extremely overlooked. It's the thing most people have their difficulties with, it's the rhythm. And great, driving rhythms can give enormous expressive power to music that has no other melody than what's herad from the drums. With that in mind, I believe melody is the most important aspect of good music. Melody is important, as am trying to point out in this thread, but rhythm is #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nicci Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Anomandaris Melody is more important in a compositional sense. You can't generate nearly as much emotion with rhythm as you can with melody. but one could have great compositions without a real melody. just harmony. just as emotionally strong.listen to igor stravinsky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members evan_02 Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 what's the difference between swing, be-bop, and dixieland? the rhythm! you guys ever hear Zakir Hussain play tabla? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members r0g3r Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Anomandaris The point I want to make is that even though music can not exist without rhythm of some sort, it is melody which gives music its expressive power.With that in mind, I believe melody is the most important aspect of good music. I agree with you here. I think melody is the most important element and music, and all other elements are suborinate to it. Everything else is there to support the melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members r0g3r Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Nicci but one could have great compositions without a real melody. just harmony. just as emotionally strong.listen to igor stravinsky. Any good harmony contains a good melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted November 17, 2002 Author Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by r0g3r I agree with you here. I think melody is the most important element and music, and all other elements are suborinate to it. Everything else is there to support the melody. Rhythm is #1! Without rhythm there is no melody, it's just random, unconnected notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members r0g3r Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by Terje Rhythm is #1! Without rhythm there is no melody, it's just random, unconnected notes. Rythm is certainly part of the melody. But, personally I can't be moved by rythm alone. It may make you want to tap your foot or whatever, but I don't think that pure rythm conveys any emotion. Mozart and Bach saw melody as the most important element of music, and I'm inclined to agree with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevehollx Posted November 17, 2002 Members Share Posted November 17, 2002 Originally posted by r0g3r Rythm is certainly part of the melody. But, personally I can't be moved by rythm alone. It may make you want to tap your foot or whatever, but I don't think that pure rythm conveys any emotion.Mozart and Bach saw melody as the most important element of music, and I'm inclined to agree with them. yeah, i agree with roger. music that gets stuck in your head is often the melody, whether it be a part of a solo, an intro riff, or a voal line. You'll never [or hardly ever] get just a rhythm beat [i.e. drum solo?] in your head. Like, take two pieces side by side. One full of just wuarter notes in 4/4 time, but a catchy/emotional melody. Compare it to a crazy one note rhythm, and see which gets stuck in yourt head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jazz_Funk_42 Posted November 18, 2002 Members Share Posted November 18, 2002 There's two ways to look at it. Someone like Malmsteen or John Williams would definitely agree that the melody is the most important aspect of the music, but tell that to someone like James Brown or Bob Marley, who's probably most worried about how the rhythm grooves. Listen to a Wes Montgomery-style chord solo and you'll see the best of both worlds. Really though, if I actually try and weigh the two concepts, my brain starts to hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted November 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted November 18, 2002 Originally posted by r0g3r Rythm is certainly part of the melody. Melody does not exist without rhythm,. Without rhythm it's just random, unconnected notes. A melody is the combination of notes and rhythm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members r0g3r Posted November 18, 2002 Members Share Posted November 18, 2002 Originally posted by Terje Melody does not exist without rhythm,. Without rhythm it's just random, unconnected notes. A melody is the combination of notes and rhythm. Right, as I said, rythm is a component of melody. We agree there. But how does that make rythm more important than melody in music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members r0g3r Posted November 18, 2002 Members Share Posted November 18, 2002 Also Terje, are you saying that all of the Classical composers were wrong in placing the importance of melody above that of harmony and rythm? Virtually all composers from Bach, to Beethoven felt that the melody was most important element in music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted November 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted November 18, 2002 Why do I put rhythm in front of melody? Because it's the more basic component. You can have music, and music that is really moving, with just rhythm. Did these classical composers actually say like that, did they say or write that they put melody first and rhythm second or is that just and interpretation of their music? Cause I'm not hearing that in their music either. Rhythm comes first there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted November 18, 2002 Members Share Posted November 18, 2002 Originally posted by Nicci but one could have great compositions without a real melody. just harmony. just as emotionally strong.listen to igor stravinsky. Stravinsky is very melodic. Yes, he gave more focus to unusual rhythms and harmonies, but the melody in his work is paramount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WattsUrizen Posted November 18, 2002 Members Share Posted November 18, 2002 Terje, you are totally correct to say that rhythm is the most fundamental aspect of music, and that melody does not exist without some form of rhythm. But solely rhythm does not give the emotional effect that melody does. Yes melody contains rhythm, but it is the combination of not only various note durations, but also various pitches, that elicits such varied and visceral responses from listeners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted November 18, 2002 Author Members Share Posted November 18, 2002 Originally posted by Anomandaris But solely rhythm does not give the emotional effect that melody does. "Does not give"... "does not give"... for you maybe. I've heard lots of purely rhythmical music that has moved me. In a related discussion in a jazz forum I frequent someone quoted Dizzy saying "I hear rhythms and then I put different notes to that". Interesting thing to say and probably very true. Rhythm is the biggest stumbling block for most of us. But it sure wasn't for Dizzy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nicci Posted November 18, 2002 Members Share Posted November 18, 2002 Originally posted by r0g3r Any good harmony contains a good melody. true. but what is the difference if this is true? Bach wrote a lot of contrapunt. Mozart worked his way from chord to chord, 'improvising' a melody in between. Stravinsky combined the two. If we go back to Bach one could state that he placed one chord after another. Therefore: every harmony is melody. Every melody is harmony. It is just a way of looking at the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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