OT: difference between concert (C), Eb, Bb instuments

[adamck]

My father, who plays some alto sax, and I have been trying to figure out why an alto sax is an Eb flat instument and why an A on a guitar is not the same as an A on sax.

 

Isn't an A tone 440 Hz?

 

He tells me that if he played a G on the sax and I played a Bb on guitar, we'd be playing the same tone. Huh?

 

 

Could any of you jazz musicians explain this?

[TubeAddict]

http://www.jazclass.aust.com/notes.htm#04

[Oliver]

Does anyone know why this is done?
Why doesn't a saxplayer simply learn that, when playing a note with a frequency of 440 Hz, it is an A?

I'm considering to start playing saxophone myself sooner or later. I don't know why I should care about this Eb/Bb stuff and simply learn it like a C-instrument.

[TubeAddict]

When you learn to play saxaphone, you usually learn to play from music that was written by others. Historically, it was written so that it fit conveniently on the treble clef and people learn to sight read it that way.

Why is guitar music written so that middle C is off by an octave?

[gogo]

When transposing instruments were explained to John Lennon, he replied "That's bloody stupid, isn't it?"


I've heard that Gerry Mulligan for one never learned transposing; he called the notes by their concert names and read concert sheet music. One downside is this would put all printed saxophone music in the wrong key.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Oliver Does anyone know why this is done? Why doesn't a saxplayer simply learn that, when playing a note with a frequency of 440 Hz, it is an A?

 

 

Two reasons. First of all it would be very hard to read if it was written in C concert, the notes would be above or below the lines depending on what instrument we're talking about.

 

Secondly, the point is that you can go from one instrument to the other easily. Like say you're playing tenor sax and then you wanna play alto. You just switch instruments, get new sheet music, but use the same fingering for the notes you see on the paper.

[Oliver]

First of all it would be very hard to read if it was written in C concert, the notes would be above or below the lines depending on what instrument we're talking about.

Well I can't really see that point. It's not a big jump from C to Bb or Eb.

 

the point is that you can go from one instrument to the other easily. Like say you're playing tenor sax and then you wanna play alto. You just switch instruments, get new sheet music, but use the same fingering for the notes you see on the paper.

That's an interesting point. I didn't know this.

 

Why is guitar music written so that middle C is off by an octave?

I think it's because without transposing a whole octave(!) sheet music for guitar would be hardly readable.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Oliver [ Why is guitar music written so that middle C is off by an octave? I think it's because without transposing a whole octave(!) sheet music for guitar would be hardly readable.

 

 

But there's your answer for the first reason I explained. It would become very hard to read. They actually have an alto clef too you know. Tenor voices are often written an octave too high. Only piano players read notes that go way beyond those staff lines.

[Mike_E_McGee]

Terje gets the prize!
On a sax, you know that one left hand finger down is a C. It does not matter if you are on a bari, tenor, alto, or soprano. This way if you learn one sax, you can play them all. The problem is that playing a C on a bari let's you hear an Eb, and a C on a tenor is really a Bb above the bari. A C on an alto is an Eb an octave up from the bari, and a C on the soprano is a Bb an octave above the tenor.
If everything were written in actual pitch, you'd have to learn to read four different ways to play four different types of saxes. Instead of this, you just change the sheet music to take into account that it's hard enough to read one way. This is why an alto can't read a tenor part. It'll be fine solo, but it'll be the wrong key with a group.
Sax players associate a fingering with a place on the staff. Like I said, the left hand middle finger is the C on the space in the middle of the staff. Although there are a few alternate fingerings, sax is closer to a piano than a guitar. A guitar can have as many as 6 places where you can play the same pitch. Pianos have only one spot per note.
Imagine if you tuned a piano sharp a fifth. Would you rather relearn the keyboard so that where you used to play a C is now a G, or would you rather change the sheet music so that you could play it the way you know how to, and still be in the correct key as the rest of the band?

[Cassius]

IT STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID.

Apparently in germany they dont bother with trasposing everyone learns to read the same music.

[SpoonyJank]

it makes being a composer into a real job, they'd be proffessional metronomes otherwise

[Terje]

Originally posted by Cassius IT STUPID STUPID STUPID STUPID.

 

 

No, it's practical.

 

 

Apparently in germany they dont bother with trasposing everyone learns to read the same music.

 

 

Germans are strange. Everybody knows that.