Soloing help

[CrazyJoe2003]

I desperatly need help with the concept of soloing. I've examined some chord riffs i'v written and tried to figure out key and all sorts of stuff. I have no clue where to start.

 

For example one song is F,E,G all power chords...I've tried E harmonic minor and E minor pentatonic scales and all sorts of {censored} but can't figure out the key or the hell to do....I really need help in theory.

[Terje]

You know, a chord progression going F E G, all power chords so you've got no 3rd (meaning we don't know if the chords are major or minor)... this is not the easiest place to start soling or improvising.

Let's take a chord progression you should know, the 12 bar blues progression. In E the simplest version of this progression would go:
|E7|E7|E7|E7|A7|A7|E7|E7|B7|B7|E7|E7|

So, what to play? You can play the A minor pentatonic over the whole thing and sound good But one note should be added right away, the b5. This is how it would look:

E--5--8----
B--5--8----
G--5--7--8-
D--5--7----
A--5--6--7-
E--5--8-----

Use your ear to guide you on what notes to play on what chord but basically they're all good through the entire progression. Why don

[TubeAddict]

Look at the chord tones:

E5 = E B
F5 = F C
G5 = G D

a good place to start might be a scale which includes these tones, like C major (or E phrygian), or overlaps this list of notes, like C major pentatonic (= A minor pentatonic).

[Terje]

Hey, good one TubeAddict.

[Nkundhausen]

In my experience, the best lead work i have come up with has been done by not paying any attention to keys/scales or trying to play in any particular scale - your ears will tell you what sounds good or bad

try putting down the guitar, and doing it in your head - works well for me (actual results may differ)

[edeltorus]

Originally posted by CrazyJoe2003 For example one song is F,E,G all power chords...I've tried E harmonic minor and E minor pentatonic scales and all sorts of {censored} but can't figure out the key or the hell to do....I really need help in theory.

 

 

Hi Joe.

 

 

For F,E and G I would play E phrygian over it.

 

Another option would be to use Harmonic Minor 5 E (my favorite scale these days). That's the same as the E-phrygian scale, but the 4th is altered one halftone down.

 

Bye,

Nils

[TubeAddict]

Originally posted by edeltorus Another option would be to use Harmonic Minor 5 E (my favorite scale these days). That's the same as the E-phrygian scale, but the 4th is altered one halftone down.

 

 

I'm confused by this. Do you mean Ab?

[edeltorus]

Ok.. silly ascii-art:

This is HM5 (Phyrigian Dominant) in A. You need to transpose it to the 12th fret (or use a different fingering) to play in E (I tabbed it in A because I want to avoid two digit numbers in ascii-tabs).

|-----------------------------5-6----|
|-----------------------5-6-8--------|
|-------------------6-7--------------|
|-------------5-7-8------------------|
|-----4-5-8-9------------------------|
|-5-6--------------------------------|


And this is normal phrygian mode in A.

|-----------------------------5-6-8--|
|-----------------------5-6-8--------|
|-------------------5-7--------------|
|-------------5-7-8------------------|
|-------5-8-9------------------------|
|-5-6-8------------------------------|


Both will work over A, Bb, C powerchords (same as your E,F,G. Just moved up a 4th).

The phryigan mode assumes that the root is in minor. It sounds a bit strange at first because of the b2 (second degree of the scale.. e.g. the halftone step over the root-note).

The HM5 mode can be played over Minor and Major roots because it has booth a minor and major third in it. It sounds a bit more oriental than phygian (especially if you stress the 3 halftone steps).

Notice, how changing just one note changes the feel of the scale.


Have fun,
Nils

[TubeAddict]

I see now. The fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale is the same as the phrygian mode with the third note sharp.

[edeltorus]

I see now. The fifth mode of the harmonic minor scale is the same as the phrygian mode with the third note sharp.

Exactly


That mode is one of the most popular dominant scales for the minor modes. It works very well if the V in a minor progression is not minor but a major seventh chord is used instead (This happends a lot to emphasize the dominant sound. Especially in metal and other harder styles).

You can look at CrazyJoe's E,F,G progression as a small extract of a ordinary a-minor progression (V, VI, VII). Since he plays powerchords we can just assume a major E triad and play HM5 over it (which is of the same note-material as if we play vanilla harmonic minor in A).

On the other hand we can assume a E-minor triad, play phrygian E over it and we have the same note-material as if we would play simple (aeolian) minor in A..

Btw. That progression along with the phrygian scale is a important Goth and EBM style music cliche

[thelonius74]

One of the reasons you had trouble with the E harmonic minor and the E pentatonic was that the first 3 notes of an E harmonic minor are E, F#, and G.

So you're not hitting that F....you're hitting an F# which creates some very bizarre tones.

I have a question for you guys though. If one were to use the Phrygian dominant (harmonic minor 5) and you say it's the Phrygian with a sharp 3rd....well wouldn't a sharp 3rd be a G#? which would basically create the same problem over the progression in question as using the E Harmonic Minor?

[TubeAddict]

All of the notes in those three chords come from E phrygian. Raising the G creates one avoid note. E harmonic minor has three avoid notes (F# C# D#) over the progression, and will sound particularly dissonant over F5.

[edeltorus]

Edited by edeltorus: Folks, I messed up that HM5 thing. Most of the stuff I wrote is still valid (chord functions, mood of the scales) Just the stuff I wrote about the thirds is bull{censored}. I edited the post and corrected the bull{censored} I wrote:

I have a question for you guys though. If one were to use the Phrygian dominant (harmonic minor 5) and you say it's the Phrygian with a sharp 3rd....well wouldn't a sharp 3rd be a G#? which would basically create the same problem over the progression in question as using the E Harmonic Minor?

thelonius74, that's true.

The sharp 3rd is a G#, And it's a avoid note when playing the III.

I'll break it down and also write something about the chord functions in this progression) A fair warning to all jazz-theory folks, this post might make your hair stood on end


Here the intervals of HM5 E relative to E major (notice: no 4th)

1 b2 - - 3 4 - 5 b6 - b7 - 1 (HM5)

The I-II-III progression will use these notes:

E-Major: 1, 3, 5
F-Major: b2, 4, b6
G-Major: b3, 5, b7

So we use all 7 notes from the HM5 scale (the minor third is missing through). There are no real avoid notes if this scale is used over this progression except for the major third over the III. There some notes that sound odd when played over certain chords (b2 or b3 over the E for example) through. But since the entire progression is odd and strong these disonances sound fine (at least for me) and support it's character.

The second degree chord (F) works like a dominant chord in this progression (it wants to resolve back to the I).

The chord on the third degree takes the subdominant function (alterate between the I, II and III and notice, how stable sounding the III is).

So no I-IV-V this time.. But the old I-IV-V cliche

[black cobra]

edeltorus, it helped a lot and was very informative, thanks.

[edeltorus]

Ok folks,

I have to admit I totally {censored}ed-up my HM5 post .

Of cause the scale is not:

1 b2 - b3 3 - - 5 b6 - b7 - 1

but:

1 b2 - - 3 4 - 5 b6 - b7 - 1

The phrygian third is alterated up.

Stupid me!

So we don't have a b3/3 halftonestep.. Just forget what I wrote about it. And thelonius74: You're right: the 3 is a avoid note in this context. Especially when played over the III.

Anyways... Now I really wonder how the other scale (that one with b3/3) will sound. I'm giving it a try this evening.