Finger picking tone question

[Negative K3 fan]

I play classical guitar ive got lessons etc. And the last lesson i had i studied a piece of bach, my teacher said that it was technically very good. But my tone and especially right hand work aren't as good. The main problems are that ive got a piece of {censored} guitar, but in like a month or two ill get a new one. And the other problem is that the notes played with my thuhmb are very soft compared to the higher notes, ove only recently started growing nails (io normally bite them of, bad habit) and ive got some pretty good nails on my index middle and ring finger but the nail of my thumb neads some time. But when i play with my thuhmb its in a 'weird' angle, i thought you couldnt use the thumb nail but then my teacher showed me how he did it and he plays more with the tip of his thumb, i play mnore with the side.

 

Other then that my finger work on my right hand could be a lot better. Who's got some good tips for me?

[F-holes]

A good classical tone requires a good thumbnail. You will see the difference once the nail has grown. These points may help as well. Discuss them with your instructor.

1)-Keep your right wrist elevated from the top of the guitar. Approx. three fingers from the back of your wrist to the soundboard.

2)-Learn to use rest strokes with the thumb whenever possible.

[dongenaro]

When it comes to modern classical guitar, nails are everything. You have to experiment with different shapes for your nails and keep them ultra smooth. I use a 2,000. grit sand paper ( or at least I did, I just gave up classical after 12 years to pursue two handed style). The shape thing is a big one. I have the problem that my nails tend to hook downward. I was in a master's class with Benjamin Verdery one time and my tone was really bad that day. I played a Russian piece by Nikita Koshkin. It turns out that Verdery knew Koshkin and another Russian guitarist that had the same problem with his nails that I have. This guy had come up with the solution of ironing his nails to make them hook upward. I did this for the last 6 years or so and it made all the difference.
You really need to grow out those nails and take care of them. You dont want any sharp angles on your nails.Some people like to keep them rounded, while others will actually slightly flatten the portion that contacts the strings. This is hard to describe in words, but imagine the strings wearing down your nail as you drag it across the string. They end up being slightly flattened out on that side. Verdery also recommended that as well as other excellent players that I was privileged to play for.
When plucking the strings you should come across the strings at an angle, rather than having your nails parallel to the strings. This will make your tone rounder and warmer.

[Negative K3 fan]

thanks a lot dudes, this is really helpfull.

But the nails, i really bite my nails of and for some reason the nail on my index finger is ERALLY weak, I can bend it like thick paper and it also breaks too fast, i can grow it quite long but i dont think ill be able to make some sort of form out of it. I also need a dececnt nail thingy (im dutch, forgot the english word). But youve pointed me in the right direction.

[d0zerz]

I have the same problem with my index finger nail only my nails are really hard. My index broke a week ago and things just haven't been the same. You can get nail hardener (girls often use it to get long nails) from ..uhh...cosmetic places? I use my girlfriend's on my index finger. It'll strengthen your nails and deter you from biting them cause of all the chemicals in the stuff (and it tastes awful).

I'm not really an expert or anything but I started growing nails after a few months of playing guitar to take up fingerstyle (I couldn't hold on to a pick). What I do is put my fingers in position, then I'll pluck one string very deliberatly and notice how it felt....if there was any resistance or catching, I'll round off that side with a nail file until it is playing freely. I don't konw if this is right or wrong but I play almost with my fingers at a 45 degree angle to the strings so the fact that my fingernails are rounded inwards don't play a factor really. The thumbnail I have trouble with... I find it needs to be quite long on the left side, and has to be fairly rounded otherwise it'll catch. and if it's too long it gives a very sharp sound on the bass notes....but maybe that's what you're looking for. I find it almost abrasive for the stuff I play.

ever since I took up guitar I'm spending way more time manicuring my nails

[MorePaul]

I take it you are moving from a plectrum to fingerstyle?

The reason I ask is that it's pretty common for a plectrum player to have a "flat" hand position when making the transition.

by this I mean the arm is coming up from the bridge more parallel to the guitar and the wrist is held closer to the body of the guitar (like in a palm mute). This ends to put the thumb on it's side and the fingers pulling at angles.

It tends to give a thin tone with lots of "artifacts" and poor dynamic control.

While the nail is important, I believe a lot of your issue may be positioning (otherwise you won't be able to use the important nail).

1) Are you using support under your left foot?

2) Is your neck angle sufficiently high?
(away from the floor) to give you a neutral wrist position on your fretting hand....
I bring this up b/c it is conducive to proper RIGHT hand positioning as well...notice how it naturally "moves" the right arm to drape across the bass side of the lower bout as opposed to coming over the bridge.

3) When in your new position, is your hand 'hovering' OVER the strings?

Very important....keep your wrist relaxed!!! Do NOT flex your wrist into a "bird Talon"where your thumb itrying to touch your forearm...There was an old-school method of that and it caused injuries. Your wrist will flex a touch out of neutral, but this should not be a tension, just a shaping

As stated earlier...rest-stroke will not only give you a clen sound, it will position you correctly. It's a fundamental technique

[dongenaro]

Originally posted by MorePaul I take it you are moving from a plectrum to fingerstyle? The reason I ask is that it's pretty common for a plectrum player to have a "flat" hand position when making the transition. by this I mean the arm is coming up from the bridge more parallel to the guitar and the wrist is held closer to the body of the guitar (like in a palm mute). This ends to put the thumb on it's side and the fingers pulling at angles. It tends to give a thin tone with lots of "artifacts" and poor dynamic control. While the nail is important, I believe a lot of your issue may be positioning (otherwise you won't be able to use the important nail). 1) Are you using support under your right foot? 2) Is your neck angle sufficiently high? (away from the floor) to give you a neutral wrist position on your fretting hand.... I bring this up b/c it is conducive to proper RIGHT hand positioning as well...notice how it naturally "moves" the right arm to drape across the bass side of the lower bout as opposed to coming over the bridge. 3) When in your new position, is your hand 'hovering' OVER the strings? Very important....keep your wrist relaxed!!! Do NOT flex your wrist into a "bird Talon"where your thumb itrying to touch your forearm...There was an old-school method of that and it caused injuries. Your wrist will flex a touch out of neutral, but this should not be a tension, just a shaping As stated earlier...rest-stroke will not only give you a clen sound, it will position you correctly. It's a fundamental technique

 

 

All great points MorePaul. I think I assumed his teacher would have pointed this stuff out. I geuss you never know though.

[MorePaul]

whoops just noticed I mistyped "right foot" instead of left foot (corrected)


It's a weird one, positioning and fundamentals sometimes don't get revisited as there's so much to cover. Sometimes revisiting the fundamentals is overlooked and the root of the problem can be found there

Sometimes when you go to a masterclass/workshop type deal, you'll see the instructor adjust someone's position...actually that's a lot of it.

I think we all (I know I do), get 'drawn away' from our fundamentals. We develop bad habits, etc
it's a bitch ain't it


it's the "side of the thumb" remark that triggered it for me

[Negative K3 fan]

Originally posted by MorePaul it's the "side of the thumb" remark that triggered it for me

You were right, your post was extrremely helpful. At home i dont have a very good training position i just sit down where i can i prefer very low chairs and then i put my guitar on my right leg (i know this is totally wrong ) but when i go to lessons i sit good with a high left foot support. Ive been playing fingerstyle longer than with picks but i started playing classical quite young, but i never practise. Only since a year or 2,5 im more serious into guitar thats also when i picked up electrical guitar w/ picks etc. The past few months ive been practising my pick technique a lot. I think it influences my classical playing as well. Like you said i pick with the side of my thumb and it never came up to me that it was wrong before my teacher said i had to work on this kind of stuff.

Anymore tips about what to play etc.?

[d0zerz]

what do you mean by rest stokes? I should know this I know Are they like really soft quite bass notes where they aren't neccesarily supposed to be?

[dongenaro]

Originally posted by d0zerz what do you mean by rest stokes? I should know this I know Are they like really soft quite bass notes where they aren't neccesarily supposed to be?

A rest stroke is produced by placing the fingertip on the string and pulling through that string to come to "rest" on the next string. Although you start with the flesh of the fingertip, the nail actually plucks the string. It produces a more powerful, yet warmer sound when done properly and is generally used to bring out the melody line. Good players can do this extremely fast.

[Negative K3 fan]

Originally posted by dongenaro A rest stroke is produced by placing the fingertip on the string and pulling through that string to come to "rest" on the next string. Although you start with the flesh of the fingertip, the nail actually plucks the string. It produces a more powerful, yet warmer sound when done properly and is generally used to bring out the melody line. Good players can do this extremely fast.

 

 

the term for that i know is apayando, playing without resting the finger is tirando. Ive got a question about that. When i play (or try to) play apayando with longer nails they get kind of stuck behind the string which is not very helpful, does anyone have tips for that? Or is that also right hand positioning?

[dongenaro]

Originally posted by d0zerz Are you only supposed to do this with your thumb? They way i'm accustomed to playing is with i m r p on 4 3 2 1 then thumb on 5 6 What is the point of resting it on the next string? I feel I already start pulling the string with the pad of my fingers, then the string gets clipped with my nail and I follow through, but I don't touch the adjacent string (I"ve been trying to keep myself from muting strings I wanted ringing)

 

 

It's all about power. By pulling through and coming to rest on the next string, you force yourself to dig in deeper. It takes more strength and effort and thus produces more powerful tones. Give it a try and you will hear the difference.

[dongenaro]

Originally posted by Negative K3 fan the term for that i know is apayando, playing without resting the finger is tirando. Ive got a question about that. When i play (or try to) play apayando with longer nails they get kind of stuck behind the string which is not very helpful, does anyone have tips for that? Or is that also right hand positioning?

 

 

I would say that position is the problem. Make sure you're coming across the string at an angle instead of parallel to the string. Of course, it could be the shape of your nails and there's the hooking problem that I spoke of above. Do your nails hook downward?

 

Also, how long have you been at it? I remember getting stuck early on simply because the tips of my fingers were not yet strong enough.

[MorePaul]

I agree with Don

I think clearing up the position will clear up a lot of problems and get you "most of the way" there. Other problems can't be addressed successfully until the position is corrected.

While nails are important, they don't have to be "coke nails" (I think a lot of guys...me for instance... go a little too long at some point and then bring it back)
but that's a tuning that will be directed by proper position, so i'll sort itself out in the next round

You MAY (and this is not as certain as the other positioning things -- it's hard to tell without seeing you play) be playing "under the string" and pulling up,that ges your finger caught. This is alos somewhat common, though not endemic, when the player picks with a "flat hand" from plectrum style...the wrist is sometimes flat or breaks toward the back of the hand...then the fingers tend to articulate from the middle joint almost exclusively making a tiny, severe arc. In this case, the finger winds up pulling UNDER the string and hanging.


As you are a player of experience just with bad habits, I'd say just
Don't be Lazy

It's sort of one of those "practice doesn't make perfct, perfect practice makes perfect" things. You probably just need to structure the practice and play some right hand exercises (not flashy ones, just basic ones) to get back in shape

Hey, we all get sloppy! who hasn't lounged on the sofa with their guitar only to discover after a half hour that they are wrapped around their guitar like a shrip and are staring directly AT the soundhole

[MorePaul]

I can't remember who did the Ubungen (exercises) for the right and left hands...there's like 109 for the right and like 112 for the left or some such.

Anyone remember those?
The left hand had the "studies of intervals" where you play through scales using double stops

[slowmotion_sick]

Originally posted by MorePaul Hey, we all get sloppy! who hasn't lounged on the sofa with their guitar only to discover after a half hour that they are wrapped around their guitar like a shrip and are staring directly AT the soundhole

(I do it all the time... yes I'm going to Hell:()