Members djchase7 Posted November 25, 2003 Members Share Posted November 25, 2003 I had lessons a while back and my teacher was on the way to teaching me some theory. He gave me five different scales to memorize, pentatonic I think. So know I know these and I can play though these pretty fast from the top E to the bottom E but I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members butch Posted November 26, 2003 Members Share Posted November 26, 2003 This isn't a theory answer to your questions because there's a lot of choices.Here's something I recently recorded.I 'm just playing one groove with 2 chords Dminor9th -BbMa7#11.. The BbMa7#11 chord is really easy it's just an Aminor shape at the 6th fret (lowest note) with a Bb in the bass line)play the open 1st string).I use the exact same chord for the Dminor add 9th with a D in the bass.I'm using almost exclusively a D Minor pentatonic scale but I'm not really thinking that way.I was trying to create themes and variations in relation to the 2 chords.I think it's imporatnt after/while your learning to have a real application. Butch Right click save as target: http://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=708242&q=Lohttp://www.soundclick.com/util/streamM3U.m3u?ID=708242&q=Hihttp://www.soundclick.com/util/DownloadSong.cfm?ID=708242 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terje Posted November 26, 2003 Members Share Posted November 26, 2003 Runs I don't know about but there's lots you can doi with pentatonic scales. As far as jazz and blues are concerned there are onlyo three pentatonic scales you need to be concerned with and that's the major pentatonic (in the key of C it goes C D E G A) , the altered pentatonic (C D Eb G A) and the dominant pentatonic (C D E G Bb). With these three you can create a lot of music if you know how to use them over different chords. So, let's investigate... Let's take a very common progression in jazz, the ii-V-I. In C that's Dm7-G7-Cmaj7. You'll run into this one all the time (in different keys of course ). Over the Dm7 there are a few options. Like the C major pentatonic scale (C D E G A), the G major pentatonic (G A B D E, sounds really nice this one), the D altered pentatnoic (D E F A B) or the F major (or D minor if you like) pentatonic scale ( D F G A C). Over the G7 you could play the G major pentatonic of course, or the G dominant pentatonic (G A B D F). But that would sound a little boring. Instead you can try the D altered pentatonic. If you want wilder sounds you could try the C# major pentatonic, that's a tritone substitute scale, adds a lot of tension and is nicely resolved to C major pentatonic over the Cmaj7 later. Or you could try Ab major pentatonic (Ab Bb C Eb F) which resolves nicely to G major pentatonic again over the Cmaj7 chord. Over Cmaj7 you could play C major pentatonic or G major pentatonic. But you can also play the D major pentatonic (D E F# A B) since the F# of the D major pentatonic sounds real pretty over the Cmaj7 chord. There are several options here to string different pentatonic scales together to create longer, flowing lines or sequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members djchase7 Posted November 26, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 26, 2003 Thanks guys. Nice playing Butch! That Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members edeltorus Posted November 26, 2003 Members Share Posted November 26, 2003 Originally posted by djchase7 I can figure out which scale to play anywhere on the guitar by ear but not by chord. I know how they connect, and I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Paul J. Edwards Posted November 26, 2003 Members Share Posted November 26, 2003 It's not a bad idea to keep in mind of the chord that is being played as you solo. The notes in the chord are solid resting points.I's best to start with a simple blues. Say it's in A you would use your E form starting on the 5th fret. You can superimpose the A form also starting on the 5th fret while the A chord is being played . This will give you the C# on the 3rd string which is the 3rd of A. The interplay between the C (b3/1st finger third string) and this C# is very cool.Also dont be afraid to "step outside the box" as long as you resolve it back to a good note "inside the box". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members butch Posted November 27, 2003 Members Share Posted November 27, 2003 Here's the main stumbling block I think folks having learning to improvise...They over think.Too many "play this scale with that chord these notes make that mode.... licks and runs... blah blah blah. If you are just learning how you shouldn't be attempting to play over complicated chord changes.Thats why rock is a good starting point.It's usually a groove of chords you can stay in one key and a pentatonic Minor scale sounds good over all of them.The idea is to make music isn't it?From what you said you had a decent handle on the mechanics (fingering patterns) and a basis in the technical aspect.You gotta jump out of the nest sometime.More theory will not help you at all until you apply it and making some music is your goal. I put my tune up because it's pretty straight forward 2 chords one key center.Beside the middle part I'm not doing anything difficult physically to play.I'm making mistakes and "listening" for some themes to build on.I'm not even doing it that good but the opportunity to hear mostly just the improvising and not a song or anything else can help you focus on what's important. In this type of situation I like mini themes and variation.It's more of "how " I'm playing the notes.I'm not playing up and down scales or doing tricks.Theres no arpeggios or modal leanings.Listen how I'm utilizing mechanics to shape the timbre of the notes with slides hammers, pulls,bends,vibrato ,chokes, kills.double stops,pops,chicken picken.Listen how the notes and phrases change dynamically and rythmically..I'm mostly playing with my fingers for picking but I'm using the pick and hybrid pick and fingers.sometimes I use straight finger vibrato sometimes whammy bar..sometime both!It's not completely noticeable cause I'm playing a little dirty but I'm changing pickups .I also change where I pick on the string.Don't be afraid of stray noises and mistakes.use them as part of the music. The nuisance of how you play the notes means much more over all than the scale choices.My suggestion is..........Put the theory book down.Break out the recorder.If you don't have one get one it's vitally important unless you want to bore everyone for years.Find a groove and 1-3 simple chords to play in one key preferably minor and play a pentatonic minor as you main choice of notes.Don't worry about playing the other notes either way,Listen to the music and how you say them. If it doesn't sound goods it's not because of the scales you don't know or how to play over the difficult changes.....there shouldn't be any!! One key.... easy changes. Unless you are playing completely badly outside it's how you are playing the notes.Play in rhythm to the groove.Create themes and variations.Get inside of the notes. Butch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Paul J. Edwards Posted November 28, 2003 Members Share Posted November 28, 2003 Originally posted by butch If it doesn't sound goods it's not because of the scales you don't know or how to play over the difficult changes.....there shouldn't be any!!Butch Huh??? You must be joking?Try playing over the changes to Giant Steps and tell me it's because there are no difficult changes or there should not be.What are you talking about????In the begining you need to think about what you are doing and then it becomes second nature. Very few have the inate talent to just hear the changes and play a meaningful solo. By meaningful I do not mean a pentatonic wanking that is so prevelant in rock music if you can find a solo in any current rock music these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members butch Posted November 28, 2003 Members Share Posted November 28, 2003 Paul I think you missed the context .My suggestion was......record a simple one key 1-3 chord progression and get inside the notes. I don't know what your point was in relation to the Trane cycle . right....the very begginning..... He said he wanted to go farther and had the basics.My suggestions was to "not" have difficult changes .Thinking about scale subs, chord tones and riffs isn't helpfull.Matter fact I don't believe it's possible to think and play a meaningful solo.My point was it's not so much about notes in a technical sense.It's whats being done with them.The old cliche of BB King playing one note rings true.But it could be a thousand notes .Trane and Bird don't sound good because they can blow over changes .It was because they knew the insides of the notes ....fast, slow, changes one chord vamp..... To me thats the real stuff.More time and effort should be spent doing that than cramming our heads with things that don't matter if you can't play the insides of the notes. Butch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members djchase7 Posted December 1, 2003 Author Members Share Posted December 1, 2003 Okay boys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members butch Posted December 2, 2003 Members Share Posted December 2, 2003 Congrats DJ!!sounds like you made a break through.If you realize it's not just techinacal knowledge that makes someone better you're on the right road.Believe me I have nothing against knowledge...when it's applied.I've spent years (and will spend many more) scratching the surface of what there is to know.Luckily you don't have to know much just to play and have fun!! It sounds like the next step for you is to set aside some quality time to really listen to the inside of the notes of the stuff you really like.I wouldn't worry about sounding like them too soon.Thats like saying you don't wanna look like some Muscle beach freak when you're bench pressing 130 lbs.Don't worry ..You won't!! When you can sound like any of the masters you won't be sorry.The bonus is the time and effort spent to achieve that will manifest itself in so many other ways you are really just on the path to the way you uniquely sound.The only folks that sound the same to me are ones that don't get the inside of the notes.Good luck Butch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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