Members vote4dicktaid Posted August 16, 2004 Members Share Posted August 16, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 Is that the best you can do? Call someone a troll for pointing out that you were playing in the wrong key?Maybe our friend Auggie Doggie would take a listen and tell me what he thinks about your drifting off into the wrong key. In fact does anyone think that you stay in the right key?http://gozips.uakron.edu/~jjp14/songformyfather.mp3There's the link. If you think that Poparad plays in the right key - please let us know. Cool clip - though I'm not much of a jazz man. Poparad chooses a lot of notes very wisely, never overplays - lets the music breathe, and obviously knows when he hits those colourful notes. There's one time, though, where it seems he hits a wrong note, is aware of that, then slides down to the right one. The musical thing to do in that situation. And he plays in the right key - despite maybe a few blunders here and then. It's improvisation, and all of the thematic work he does is more or less spot on (only heard it once). I liked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheSandwich Posted August 16, 2004 Members Share Posted August 16, 2004 Originally posted by vote4dicktaid Cool clip - though I'm not much of a jazz man. Poparad chooses a lot of notes very wisely, never overplays - lets the music breathe, and obviously knows when he hits those colourful notes.There's one time, though, where it seems he hits a wrong note, is aware of that, then slides down to the right one. The musical thing to do in that situation.And he plays in the right key - despite maybe a few blunders here and then. It's improvisation, and all of the thematic work he does is more or less spot on (only heard it once). I liked it. +1...I think someone here is just trying to pick an easy e-fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members skatom Posted August 17, 2004 Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 Sorry Tommy - you are tone deaf.Jazz has always been the haven of the tone deaf.Mathmatical playing hiding behind theory and 'allowable discord' allow all sorts of tone deaf people to 'get away with it'.It's not a crime.Just as long as you realise.Lee I am not tone deaf. I have no desire to prove this to you, but the fact that I can tell a major 3rd from a perfect 5th should be evidence enough that I'm not tone deaf. I am far from it, in fact. 'Song for my Father' incorporates a minor V7b9-Im7 progression, in which the harmonic minor scale of the Im7 chord is implied by the 5 chord. Poparad's clip shows use of the harmonic minor scale, altered (super locrian) mode, and the 8-note dominant scale over this part of the progression. All three of which create tension, not least because they incorporate notes that are not present in the tonic key. These 'outside notes' do not imply a modulation, a change of key, or 'wrong' notes by any means, they are just an method of creating dissonance that can be resolved, and hence forward motion. There was one time that Poparad ended a phrase by sliding up to the b3rd of a minor chord, overshot the slide a bit and landed on the major 3rd, which sounded a bit funny. But, if anything, that was a mistake, not an ignorance to which key he was in. On that note, as you delve further into jazz, you will discover that it is less about key centres and more about playing vertically, creating melodic forward motion through a chord progression by playing sounds over each chord. "Allowable discord?" I like dissonance. To me, a minor 2nd can sound beautiful, in the context of a min9 or maj7 chord. I like the sound of temorarily playing a semitone away from a chord, and enjoy the satisfaction when this tension is resolved. I like rhythmic displacement, and free-of-tempo playing. When I play chromatically, alter chord extensions, or simply play 'outside,' I don't think of it as mathematics, or just 'winging it.' I think of it as the ultimate freedom of expression to create whatever melody or sound, whenever I want to. Just because I choose to give names and impose theories on the sounds I hear in my head doesn't mean my improvisation becomes formulaic, or dictated by pre-learned scales and shapes. It just so happens that what I want to hear when I play has already been heard in a similar way by others, who have given them names in order to understand the sounds they were hearing. Theory gives me a way to understand the sounds I hear others playing. I heard Poparad play some music, and because I've studied jazz theory, I can assign terms like 'superlocrian' and 'altered' to what I hear him play, in order to try and assimilate those same sounds into my playing if I so desire. Painting by numbers? I think not. When I play, I don't think 'dorian, mixolydian, ionian." I think and feel what I want to hear. It just happens that 'dorian, mixolydian, ionian' is a way for me to understand what I'm hearing, and help me to get it out through my instrument. Cool? - tommy b Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bobthemerciful Posted August 17, 2004 Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 Normally try not to get involved in this sort of juvenile argument. Felt compelled to listen to both clips. Know which one was more musical. And it wasn't Lee's.Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee33 Posted August 17, 2004 Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 Originally posted by bobthemerciful Normally try not to get involved in this sort of juvenile argument. Felt compelled to listen to both clips. Know which one was more musical. And it wasn't Lee's.Peace I didn't post a clip. What you were listening to I have no idea - then again maybe you didn't listen to any clips at all - just pretending to listen so that you could say mine was 'poorer'. Problem is though - I never posted a clip at all. Sorta makes you look a bit silly doesn't it? Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee33 Posted August 17, 2004 Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 Tommy. Somewhere around the one minute mark, he is playing in a totally unrelated key to the chords. If you cannot hear that - then you are tone deaf. That's what tone deaf means - the inability to distinguish melody and harmony. I sometimes wonder what music sounds like to you people. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Auggie Doggie Posted August 17, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 I didn't post a clip. What you were listening to I have no idea - then again maybe you didn't listen to any clips at all - just pretending to listen so that you could say mine was 'poorer'. Problem is though - I never posted a clip at all.Sorta makes you look a bit silly doesn't it?Lee http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=357182&perpage=20&pagenumber=5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 I didn't post a clip. What you were listening to I have no idea - then again maybe you didn't listen to any clips at all - just pretending to listen so that you could say mine was 'poorer'. Problem is though - I never posted a clip at all. Originally posted by Lee33 This is a track I made the other day. It's a rough, first take with mistakes in it, but this is how I like to construct my solos - on the fly.No (deliberate) modes here - just what I heard in my head.http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nwd/impro.mp3BTW do you have a 'clips' forum here? A place to post MP3 ideas?Lee Originally posted by Lee33 I did this in 20 mins. It's got a few mistakes - but it's only a demo. At least it proves you can play a solo to something almost instantly just by following a few simple rules.Too much theory is bad - just like using too much washing up liquid.http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nwd/kwik.mp3Lee Originally posted by Lee33 Sorta makes you look a bit silly doesn't it?Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee33 Posted August 17, 2004 Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 I never posted a clip in the THREAD that was being discussed. I know I posted clips in OTHER threads - but not the thread being REPLIED to. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bobthemerciful Posted August 17, 2004 Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nwd/kwik.mp3 is one of the ones I listened to, but it is the one I commented on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee33 Posted August 17, 2004 Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 Originally posted by bobthemerciful http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nwd/kwik.mp3 is one of the ones I listened to, but it is the one I commented on. HAHAHAHA - you are clutching at straws. They are different threads and have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. That was a simple example of tying chords together with a solo that 'shouldn't fit'. Do you compare oranges with apples? Be a man and admit you made a complete tool of yourself. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Auggie Doggie Posted August 17, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 Problem is though - I never posted a clip at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee33 Posted August 17, 2004 Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 Originally posted by Auggie Doggie In this thread. Where is the comparison between totally different threads and clips? HAHAHHA - you'll be posting one of yours next, won't you? Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee33 Posted August 17, 2004 Members Share Posted August 17, 2004 "Normally try not to get involved in this sort of juvenile argument. Felt compelled to listen to BOTH clips. Know which one was more musical. And it wasn't Lee's.Peace" There was only one clip - and it wasn't mine. HAHAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 HAHAHAHA - you are clutching at straws.They are different threads and have nothing whatsoever to do with each other. That was a simple example of tying chords together with a solo that 'shouldn't fit'.Do you compare oranges with apples?Be a man and admit you made a complete tool of yourself.Lee Originally posted by Lee33 In this thread. Where is the comparison between totally different threads and clips?HAHAHHA - you'll be posting one of yours next, won't you?Lee 1) All the clips posted are examples of improvising. You don't have to be improvising over the exact same chord progressions to form opinions and judgements about the musical aspects of improvisation. These clips are all very much fair game to be compared to each other. Doing so does not make one a 'tool' or any other nonsensical insult. 2) You keep challenging everyone to post clips to judge each other's argumental merit. You challenged me to post one, and post the backing track so you could post your example to, which you have not done. If you wish for your improvisational ability to be judged according to the same musical situation, then go ahead and post it for us. 3) Unlike you, I do not base someone's credibility entirely apon short clips or performance. Many of the world's great composers couldn't play the ideas and pieces they wrote. However, I do take it with a grain of salt as it is a bit of an indication of one's musical knowledge and understanding. It is important, but not the end all, be all to someone's arguement holding merit. If that were the case, Scott Jones could come here and win every argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee33 Posted August 18, 2004 Members Share Posted August 18, 2004 The guy never listened to 'BOTH' clips - he was caught telling porkies. Oh and i haven't had the time to record a clip yet - I'm a busy guy - I work for a living. Why don't you try it. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 The guy never listened to 'BOTH' clips - he was caught telling porkies. No, he did listen to both clips. He even pointed out which one specifically. By the way, have you noticed yet that not a single person here has agreed with you, but every last person to post has stated, with conjecture, reason, and evidence, that you are wrong. Your only response is juvenile name calling. Oh and i haven't had the time to record a clip yet - I'm a busy guy - I work for a living. Why don't you try it.Lee Lame. What makes you think I don't work for a living? And as for being a busy guy, you certainly do have plenty of time to constantly post here several times a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Auggie Doggie Posted August 19, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 19, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 HAHAHHA - you'll be posting one of yours next, won't you? Clips of my playing have been available online for some time now. I also posted a recent composition in GJ a few weeks ago, and it's one that gives an indication of my application of 'theory' in a purely compositional sense. True 3-part counterpoint (both imitative and free), melodic/motivic invention and development, modulation, fragmentation, voiceleading, etc. All without consulting any theory books or painting by numbers, and never even considering a 'scales/modes over chords' approach. It was fairly well-received, too...considering it's in a genre and style that many guitarists aren't particularly 'into'. Surely you could find it via the *search* function if you're so inclined. I doubt you could give an unbiased appraisal of it, though, since I'm 'all talk' and 'waffling' and not at all creative or talented because I have chosen to include study of theory and composition in my musical endeavors. But, that's ok. Find it and say what you will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sjonesmusic Posted August 19, 2004 Members Share Posted August 19, 2004 Theory's dumb... Dumb theory people, what do THEY know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted August 19, 2004 Share Posted August 19, 2004 Speak of the devil (see earlier post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Auggie Doggie Posted August 19, 2004 Author Members Share Posted August 19, 2004 Originally posted by Sjonesmusic Theory's dumb... Dumb theory people, what do THEY know? :D:D:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee33 Posted August 19, 2004 Members Share Posted August 19, 2004 Originally posted by Poparad No, he did listen to both clips. He even pointed out which one specifically.By the way, have you noticed yet that not a single person here has agreed with you, but every last person to post has stated, with conjecture, reason, and evidence, that you are wrong. Your only response is juvenile name calling.Lame. What makes you think I don't work for a living? And as for being a busy guy, you certainly do have plenty of time to constantly post here several times a day. The guy referred to BOTH clips when there was but one. He listened to nothing at all. He saw what he thought was a chance to stick his oar in and got it all wrong. Anyone that thinks you are playing in key at the one minute mark is tone deaf. They aren't aware of it - but they are. Live with it. What does Auggie say? Oh and I spend about 10 mins posting here per day. Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bajazz Posted August 19, 2004 Members Share Posted August 19, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 All the theory in the world won't help you if you have nothing to say.... So much talk and so little action.If you are so darned good - let's hear a few clips.I'll post some clips for you whan I have the time. I'm so busy with gigs, but I'll try to have it ready over the weekend. Just be patient. BTW, what do you want to hear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bajazz Posted August 19, 2004 Members Share Posted August 19, 2004 Originally posted by Lee33 Anyone that thinks you are playing in key at the one minute mark is tone deaf. They aren't aware of it - but they are.I've listened to both clip, and I think you are meaning the lydian scales Poparad played over major7-chords. It's a common way to add spice in jazz-impro, but you wouldn't know about it. I listen to your clip too. Poparad plays music with fine phrashing, you play scales and lick over chords, real sloppy. But hey, I think we all have been where you are. Just practice and learn your theory, and I'm sure you will be a fine musican. But please, jump off your high horse... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee33 Posted August 19, 2004 Members Share Posted August 19, 2004 Originally posted by Bajazz I've listened to both clip, and I think you are meaning the lydian scales Poparad played over major7-chords. It's a common way to add spice in jazz-impro, but you wouldn't know about it. I listen to your clip too. Poparad plays music with fine phrashing, you play scales and lick over chords, real sloppy. But hey, I think we all have been where you are. Just practice and learn your theory, and I'm sure you will be a fine musican. But please, jump off your high horse... HAHAHAHAH - post whatever you like. Fine phrasing? HAHAHAH Sloppy? HAHAHAHA Another tone deaf player huh? Lee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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