Rant: On Theory (verbose!)

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by qwerty

Well, I actually think it does create them on some level-- but I do not believe that necessarily makes someone less creative.

I think that preconceptions come before the theory. It's in the music we hear ("Language is a virus from outer space" as burroughs said, I mean our cognition of sound is altered depending on our exposure)

Now I will say that it's very typical for people in the intermediate level to apply whatever they have learned as "law" -- this could be formalized counterpoint theory or an internalized sense of "that doesn't sound punk"...both are preconceptions of "correctness". What's happened is that someone has seen some structure and power and is now trying to apply is wholesale.


This, however, is really just a function of adolescence (not adolescence of the entire personality, but adolescence in terms of development and outlook specific to the endeavor..in this case music -- so I don't mean 'teenager'). One has internalized some structure, some idea, some "theory" and is trying to apply it pretty much across the board you see it in fencers, cyclists, chess players, visual artists, musicians of ALL types. It's more a function of learning that of a specific approach.



Ideally yes. I might say that is an advanced stage of philosophy and understanding of what theory is intended (?) to be. A similar concept is the difference between spoken english, and what grammar says english is "supposed" to be. I think it's essentially a Platonic vs Aristotelian discussion.


I find it very much so in the practice as well as the ideal. I find it the same with grammatic rules...how "loose" or "tight" or even what system of "rules" one applies is based on the application.
Just as a beginner using rules of voice leading will write trite phrases, a beginner applying grammar rules will often write stilted phrases.
With both sorts of rules, audience and scope figure in.

like in technical writing you don't define a void intependant of a structue, but in a magazine article totally cool - different grammar rules.
Just as you don't deviate from the cantus firmus in a strict canon... in a fugue? sure have at it!!!

I think it comes, again, back to the misconception that these "rules" are "laws"...They are techniques, the reason one gets marked up in class is for not being able to use the technique...it's "wrong" in the sense that "we're not doing that today, we'll work on THAT Wednesday"...or more brutally "I don't want to" translated into "I can't"


Speaking as an ex-punk rocker, I am not anti-theory. I actually want to learn more theory, and do what others describe: learn a concept and then have homework to write something using that concept.

Any book suggestions geared for that?


I STRONGLY DISCOURAGE just doing it out of a book. I do recommend LIVE INSTRUCTION (some of the classics actually read like old discourse in an attempt to forge a student-teacher relationship on paper).

I think the "study in a vacuum" approach is what leads to a lot of the misconceptions that theory is a synthetic endeavor as opposed to a tWO WAY STREET of synthesis AND analysis (that leads to roundabout with inroads of apppreciation, historical study, and just friggin listening).



As you mention, like everything else, it's really an aural (and oral) tradition...you have to be able to ask questions, and who's every teachning you is going to run over to the piano (or whatever) about 1,000,000 an hour and go "you mean like this? (chord) or like this? (chord)...did you try this? (chord)"

...where the codified stuff helps is when you go "yeah, like Number #3"
And the guy can go "Number 3 was a French 6th"


Advanced theoretical concepts (whatever that means) dont "sound" like punk rock. And, players who learn a lot of theory ~tend~ to introduce those concepts into their playing. Since those concepts were developed in genres outside of punk rock, their playing, errr, no longer sounds like punk rock. Hope that gives a little insight into the punk rock bias (as misdirected as it may be) against "theory."

We had a guitarist like that. He was a "you have to know the rules before you break them" kinda guy (theory as rules-- theory as starting point). We didn't agree. For us "uneducated" players, we believed the only rules were the ears and the emotions: does it sound and feel like punk rock? Of course we had absorbed punk rock "theory" via listening and emulating. Think of authentic traditional music.

I think that experience is a good example of "getting stuck in the intermediate adolescent". He was applying structures out of context.
Maybe we was bored, maybe he was showing off, maybe he was trying to stretch the form, maybe he just didn't get it.
I think he was probably stretching his muscles (as one does when they are learning to apply something) and was misapplying what he was learning (part of learning too)

The great thing is that theory CAN say "do it plainchant/organum" (ie make it strong, make it simple and make it powerful - straight ahead), in that case, you applying a different grammar than for modern choarl harmony.

So in THAT case, he would be "marked wrong" as he didn't do a plainchant (apparently you guys did mark him wrong as you "had" a guitarist like that )

[Auggie Doggie]

*BUMP* for no specific reason, I assure you.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie *BUMP* for no specific reason, I assure you.

Hahaha.

[Lee33]

All the theory in the world won't help you if you have nothing to say.

Creative people are born creative. Witty people are naturally witty.
Musical people are naturally musical. Playing empty scales over chords will only highlight your weakness.

Be interesting and ceative - just hear it in your head and play it with your fingers.

So much talk and so little action.

If you are so darned good - let's hear a few clips.



Lee

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by Lee33 All the theory in the world won't help you if you have nothing to say. Creative people are born creative. Witty people are naturally witty. Musical people are naturally musical. Playing empty scales over chords will only highlight your weakness. Be interesting and ceative - just hear it in your head and play it with your fingers. So much talk and so little action. If you are so darned good - let's hear a few clips. Lee

 

 

My work in the field of music education has found its way all over the US, Canada, and Europe, and even reaching such places as Australia, Russia, and Japan.

 

I'm far from being 'so much talk and so little action'. I certainly have nothing to prove to the likes of you.

 

Those who know of me and my work are well aware of how big an ass you've just made of yourself. You don't need my (or anyone else's) help in that regard.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Lee33 All the theory in the world won't help you if you have nothing to say. Creative people are born creative. Witty people are naturally witty. Musical people are naturally musical. Playing empty scales over chords will only highlight your weakness.

 

 

Creativity is something that can be cultivated. It is something you can improve apon. Creativity is a state of mind rather than a set physical trait like height or skin color.

 

 

Theory doesn't make one uncreative or unoriginal. It merely adds more tools to your availabilty when making music. There is a tool, not a product itself.

 

 

I've heard A LOT of very unoriginal, boring, uncreative music on the radio made by people who have no knowledge or understanding of theory.

 

It is a total fallacy that knowing what you are doing musically is going to make it have any less 'fell' or 'emotion' or 'creativity' to it.

 

Be interesting and ceative - just hear it in your head and play it with your fingers. So much talk and so little action.

 

 

Little action? I gig out 3-4 nights a week. I've played in bands of just about every style of music out there: jazz combos, big bands, rock bands, punk bands, folk bands, orchestras, duos, trios, quartets, etc.

 

I do understand music theory. I do understand what I'm doing and I share my knowledge on the forum a lot. But I also play. I play a lot and in diverse styles of music.

 

My talk is totally backed up.

 

If you are so darned good - let's hear a few clips.

 

 

I don't mean to sound too critical, but your clips that I've heard tend to be a lot of noodling. There isn't any development of ideas. There isn't a lot of continuity... it's a lot of phrases that don't relate to each other or build apon each other. This is a hard thing to develop in one's playing, but you keep talking as if your playing trumps anyone else's here. I'm merely pointing out that I think there's a good deal of work you could do on it. My largest area of musical expertise and study is in the art of improvisation, so I know a thing or two about what I'm talking about.

 

I'm not here to derride anyone. I come to this forum to offer my help and advice to those who want to make themselves better players. I want to help people realize their full potention as musicians, and mostly, to have fun.

 

Music isn't about trying to knock down your fellow man. Music is about cooperation, synergy, and community. Music is about having a good time and sharing ideas.

 

Music isn't about trying to proove yourself to be better than others. Music isn't about showing off or putting down others.

 

 

In music, it is essential to be open minded about all styles and sounds. A closed mind will get you nowhere in music.

[Lee33]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie My work in the field of music education has found its way all over the US, Canada, and Europe, and even reaching such places as Australia, Russia, and Japan. I'm far from being 'so much talk and so little action'. I certainly have nothing to prove to the likes of you. Those who know of me and my work are well aware of how big an ass you've just made of yourself. You don't need my (or anyone else's) help in that regard.

 

 

 

In other words you are all talk.

 

A clip is worth a thousand words.

 

You can talk the talk - but can you walk the walk?

 

You have nothing to prove to the likes of me - ( a genuine musician) - but you have plenty to prove to those whom you ask to follow you.

 

There is more to music than playing by numbers.

 

 

 

Lee

 

 

 

Lee

[Lee33]

Originally posted by Poparad Creativity is something that can be cultivated. It is something you can improve apon. Creativity is a state of mind rather than a set physical trait like height or skin color. Theory doesn't make one uncreative or unoriginal. It merely adds more tools to your availabilty when making music. There is a tool, not a product itself. I've heard A LOT of very unoriginal, boring, uncreative music on the radio made by people who have no knowledge or understanding of theory. It is a total fallacy that knowing what you are doing musically is going to make it have any less 'fell' or 'emotion' or 'creativity' to it. Little action? I gig out 3-4 nights a week. I've played in bands of just about every style of music out there: jazz combos, big bands, rock bands, punk bands, folk bands, orchestras, duos, trios, quartets, etc. I do understand music theory. I do understand what I'm doing and I share my knowledge on the forum a lot. But I also play. I play a lot and in diverse styles of music. My talk is totally backed up. I don't mean to sound too critical, but your clips that I've heard tend to be a lot of noodling. There isn't any development of ideas. There isn't a lot of continuity... it's a lot of phrases that don't relate to each other or build apon each other. This is a hard thing to develop in one's playing, but you keep talking as if your playing trumps anyone else's here. I'm merely pointing out that I think there's a good deal of work you could do on it. My largest area of musical expertise and study is in the art of improvisation, so I know a thing or two about what I'm talking about. I'm not here to derride anyone. I come to this forum to offer my help and advice to those who want to make themselves better players. I want to help people realize their full potention as musicians, and mostly, to have fun. Music isn't about trying to knock down your fellow man. Music is about cooperation, synergy, and community. Music is about having a good time and sharing ideas. Music isn't about trying to proove yourself to be better than others. Music isn't about showing off or putting down others. In music, it is essential to be open minded about all styles and sounds. A closed mind will get you nowhere in music.

 

 

 

At least I know when I'm playing in the right key.

 

Music is for musicians.

 

If you don't have that ability - then you aren't one.

 

The clip I posted was noodling - but it was there to prove a point - and that point is how easy it is to play guitar to a set of chords without all the talk.

 

You listen, you hear it in your head - you play it.

 

This play by numbers is a mugs game.

 

 

Lee

[Flanger]

Originally posted by Poparad It goes both ways. I meant it in response to the one post to declare that knowing theory does not inhibit success. My theory about why most people who make it aren't educated is because there are just more uneducated musicians out there. I believe that there is an equal percentage of educated musicians who make it as there are uneducated. I don't mean that 50% of ones who make it are eduacated and 50% aren't, I mean that, say of all educated musicians who attempt to make it big, say 1% make it. Of all uneducated musicians, 1% make it. However, the ammount of uneducated musicians is far greater than the number of educated ones. Plus, of educated musicians, many don't try to become famous and well known. A lot are quite content doing what they do in local setting or teaching or doing studio work or other work that isn't arena-sell-out big. Of uneducated musicians, many more, I might say most, try to become very succesful and famous, because due to their lack of education, few are able to do things like teach, work at a university or school system, or do a lot of studio work or be a mercenary (when a band or show comes to town and needs a bassist, they hire a 'mercenary' who is a local cat who sits in and sight reads or whatever the case might be for the gig).

 

 

And then there are the guitar players who DO know their theory, but lie and say they've never had a lesson, to keep ther "street cred".

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by Lee33 In other words you are all talk. A clip is worth a thousand words. You can talk the talk - but can you walk the walk? You have nothing to prove to the likes of me - ( a genuine musician) - but you have plenty to prove to those whom you ask to follow you. You've been here several days with no purpose other than to rationalize your own lack of knowledge and criticize those who have that knowledge. You came into this forum, a LESSON forum, and start dishing out 'challenges'. Trolls don't do well in this forum; they don't fit in. We don't suffer fools gladly. Junior high is -----> that way. Please return to it now; you're late. There is more to music than playing by numbers.

 

 

 

First of all, who ever said otherwise? Second, I heard your clip...and it was the sound of someone adhering to a couple of scale patterns and playing random licks, akin to someone painting by numbers. A far cry from the melodic/thematic development you were so quick to 'talk' about.

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by Flanger And then there are the guitar players who DO know their theory, but lie and say they've never had a lesson, to keep ther "street cred".

 

 

More of a sad indictment of their audience than anything else. The fact that ignorance, feigned or real, is somehow preferable to being knowledgeable...pitiful. And there are a LOT of famous guitarists who have played the 'idiot savant' card to the benefit of their fame AND fortune, while promoting ignorance among their more impressionable fans.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Lee33 At least I know when I'm playing in the right key.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I can't take your musical opinions seriously if you think that that was playing outside of a key.

 

You are doing nothing but trolling here.

 

I'm not going to waste my time on you.

 

Music is for musicians. If you don't have that ability - then you aren't one. The clip I posted was noodling - but it was there to prove a point - and that point is how easy it is to play guitar to a set of chords without all the talk. You listen, you hear it in your head - you play it. This play by numbers is a mugs game.

 

 

Just because I know what I'm doing doesn't make it a "paint by numbers" approach to playing. I still play what I hear. I just know what it is that I'm hearing.

 

I have recieved, and sought, a lot of feedback on my playing from a lot of different payers in order to improve myself. I have never been told that I wasn't 'using my ears' or that I was playing mechanically or methodical. I also have never been told that I was playing out of key when I most certainly wasn't.

 

Therefore, when someone like you comes around throwing around a lot of talk, posts clips that don't exactly bolter your point, and tries to discredit my playing with accusations that don't have any foundation, I just have to dismiss you as a troll.

 

This is a forum for learning, for sharing of ideas, and for trying to improve oneself.

 

If you wish to argue and bicker and insult everyone here, take it to Open Jam.

[Lee33]

Originally posted by Poparad I'm sorry, but I can't take your musical opinions seriously if you think that that was playing outside of a key. You are doing nothing but trolling here. I'm not going to waste my time on you. Just because I know what I'm doing doesn't make it a "paint by numbers" approach to playing. I still play what I hear. I just know what it is that I'm hearing. I have recieved, and sought, a lot of feedback on my playing from a lot of different payers in order to improve myself. I have never been told that I wasn't 'using my ears' or that I was playing mechanically or methodical. I also have never been told that I was playing out of key when I most certainly wasn't. Therefore, when someone like you comes around throwing around a lot of talk, posts clips that don't exactly bolter your point, and tries to discredit my playing with accusations that don't have any foundation, I just have to dismiss you as a troll. This is a forum for learning, for sharing of ideas, and for trying to improve oneself. If you wish to argue and bicker and insult everyone here, take it to Open Jam.

 

 

 

Is that the best you can do? Call someone a troll for pointing out that you were playing in the wrong key?

 

Maybe our friend Auggie Doggie would take a listen and tell me what he thinks about your drifting off into the wrong key. In fact does anyone think that you stay in the right key?

 

http://gozips.uakron.edu/~jjp14/songformyfather.mp3

 

There's the link. If you think that Poparad plays in the right key - please let us know.

 

 

 

Lee

[D8rkn3ss]

Dude, i havent listened to it, but maybe it modulates, or he's adding extensions. That would certainly extend the tonality.

[Lee33]

Originally posted by D8rkn3ss Dude, i havent listened to it, but maybe it modulates, or he's adding extensions. That would certainly extend the tonality.

 

 

 

If you haven't listened - why are you answering?

[D8rkn3ss]

because Im at work, so I cant just listen at the moment and I respect the knowledge and information poparad has shared. I'veheard his work before and can attest that he knows what he is doing.

How about giving consideration to my last post, instead of being a snide dick?

[TheSandwich]

I think poparad's clip kicks ass.

[Jerry NT]

Aside from the sniping, there's some useful info here. The funny thing is that even those who disrespect theory are actually into some of it. If you don't know basic theory, you can't even play a three chord blues or country song.
I have the mechanics down well and know quite a few tricks. I have never been a professional, although I did play with a swing band back in college. I have been wondering if there were something I could study to take my playing to the next level. So music theory can be learned by someone who can read the treble cleff? I have never had much reason to look at the bass clef, as I have always played guitar and not piano.
I think that the great players of the past who might not have studied theory just had something that clicked in their brain. They knew it on some subconscious level.
Just studying scales did not seem to make any sense to me. There had to be a reason.
However, there is nothing wrong with a person who doesn't want to study theory, if they enjoy what they are doing.
But as far as puting some one down for wanting to study, it kind of reminds me of my brother (who dropped out of school in the 11th grade and joined the navy) scolding me for being a "college educated idiot."
If a person wants to learn theory, great. If he doesn't, great too. He is no less of a human.

[skatom]

Originally posted by Lee33 Is that the best you can do? Call someone a troll for pointing out that you were playing in the wrong key? Maybe our friend Auggie Doggie would take a listen and tell me what he thinks about your drifting off into the wrong key. In fact does anyone think that you stay in the right key? http://gozips.uakron.edu/~jjp14/songformyfather.mp3 There's the link. If you think that Poparad plays in the right key - please let us know. Lee

 

 

I've listened to the first 4 minutes or so, and I'm not hearing Poparad playing anything that I'd call 'playing in the wrong key' ...maybe a couple of mistakes and some colouful note choice, but nothing like playing the wrong chord/scales or anything. Do you listen to much jazz, Lee? Do you know this tune?

 

- tommy b

[Lee33]

Originally posted by skatom I've listened to the first 4 minutes or so, and I'm not hearing Poparad playing anything that I'd call 'playing in the wrong key' ...maybe a couple of mistakes and some colouful note choice, but nothing like playing the wrong chord/scales or anything. Do you listen to much jazz, Lee? Do you know this tune? - tommy b

 

 

Sorry Tommy - you are tone deaf.

 

Jazz has always been the haven of the tone deaf.

 

Mathmatical playing hiding behind theory and 'allowable discord' allow all sorts of tone deaf people to 'get away with it'.

 

It's not a crime.

 

Just as long as you realise.

 

 

Lee

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Lee33 Sorry Tommy - you are tone deaf. Jazz has always been the haven of the tone deaf. Mathmatical playing hiding behind theory and 'allowable discord' allow all sorts of tone deaf people to 'get away with it'. It's not a crime. Just as long as you realise. Lee

Oh, right, that must be it. Jazz musicians are always tone deaf.

You've heard of a thing called 'tension' right? The other half of 'release'? Together they create the essense of dynamics in music. The fundumental aspect of diversity in music?

Just as long as you realiZe.

[Jerry NT]

I am not an expert on theory by any means. But someone correct me if I am wrong. Jazz is not the only form of music that can be improved by the application of theory. I believe that there are some classically trained musicians who would disagree. Also, there are pop and hard rock musicians out there who have used theory in composition and performing.
This guy is just stating that it would not hurt any of us to learn something. Would it? I can't see anything wrong with learning something new every day. In fact, using your mind is one way to ward off senility as you age. Those that learn to play a musical instrument, play chess, read, take classes at the local community college stay more mentally alert as they age.
But learning is a lifelong adventure.
If you enjoy playing music without learning theory, fine. If you would like to see whether you could improve somewhat by learning theory, go at it. In fact, how could you judge what it does for you unless you do it?
Why is anyone upset by this concept? Calling someone names doesn't lessen the veracity of his comments. Attack the argument not the person.

[Mr.Hanky]

[Lee33]

Originally posted by Poparad Oh, right, that must be it. Jazz musicians are always tone deaf. You've heard of a thing called 'tension' right? The other half of 'release'? Together they create the essense of dynamics in music. The fundumental aspect of diversity in music? Just as long as you reali Z e.

Not all jazz musicians are tone deaf. I'm not - but you must be as you are unaware of when you are playing in the wrong key.

Oh and how pathetic you pick on what you consider a spelling error.

Is that the best you can do?

REALISE - is a BRITISH spelling and as I am BRITISH - that is the one I use.

Goodnight.




Lee

[Lee33]

Originally posted by Jerry NT I am not an expert on theory by any means. But someone correct me if I am wrong. Jazz is not the only form of music that can be improved by the application of theory. I believe that there are some classically trained musicians who would disagree. Also, there are pop and hard rock musicians out there who have used theory in composition and performing. This guy is just stating that it would not hurt any of us to learn something. Would it? I can't see anything wrong with learning something new every day. In fact, using your mind is one way to ward off senility as you age. Those that learn to play a musical instrument, play chess, read, take classes at the local community college stay more mentally alert as they age. But learning is a lifelong adventure. If you enjoy playing music without learning theory, fine. If you would like to see whether you could improve somewhat by learning theory, go at it. In fact, how could you judge what it does for you unless you do it? Why is anyone upset by this concept? Calling someone names doesn't lessen the veracity of his comments. Attack the argument not the person.

 

 

 

Who are you talking to?