Members digiology Posted November 25, 2004 Members Share Posted November 25, 2004 Hi, whenever I try to improvise or solo over most progressions I end up using pentatonic scales (and sometimes with slight variations) How can I avoid this? I end up sounding like every other guitarist! Are there some scales that I could learn that will sink in enough to give me some unusual melodies? Im not a fast player, I love jonny greenwoods unusual notes he plays. I'd like to know how he comes up with his stuff, take a bit of influence from him you know? Also, does anyone know some unusual scales that are rarely heard in music, I'd like to explore the scales the world has forgotten! Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members exit sandman Posted November 25, 2004 Members Share Posted November 25, 2004 Try this, lots of scales mapped over the whole fretboard: Chord House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted November 25, 2004 Share Posted November 25, 2004 You don't need to look very far into exotic scales to get new sounds. In fact, in order to really be able to use exotic scales you really have to have an advanced unterstanding of chords and scale relationships. There are two really simple ways that you can break out of the typical pentatonic box: 1) Learn the major scale all over the neck. Just 2 more notes, but the overall sound is much different than the pentatonic scale. This will give you more than enough material to work with over a standard chord progression. 2) Play more pentatonics! No, really! There is always more than just 1 pentatonic scale you can play on a chord. In fact, there are always 3 different ones you can choose from. First, identify what key a progression is in. For example, let's go with G C Am G. That's all in the key of G. Now, you can play minor pentatonics from the 2nd note of the scale (A), 3rd note (B), and 6th note (E). You're probably already playing the E minor pentatonic scale, but you can switch over to the other two any time for alternate sounds over those chords. It's still pentatonic, but each one of the three brings out a slightly different sound against each chord. Beyond that, just learn solos. Learn how to play them, but also analyze the solo to figure out what the soloist is doing. What scale is he playing over the chord? What notes of that scale is he choosing to empasize? What kind of rhythms are they using? How much space (resting) do they use? Do they use arpeggios in addition to scalar lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LosBoleros Posted November 25, 2004 Members Share Posted November 25, 2004 Originally posted by digiology Hi, whenever I try to improvise or solo over most progressions I end up using pentatonic scales (and sometimes with slight variations) How can I avoid this? I end up sounding like every other guitarist! Are there some scales that I could learn that will sink in enough to give me some unusual melodies? Im not a fast player, I love jonny greenwoods unusual notes he plays. I'd like to know how he comes up with his stuff, take a bit of influence from him you know? Also, does anyone know some unusual scales that are rarely heard in music, I'd like to explore the scales the world has forgotten! Thanks in advance! Here's your answer, Boleros style. If you take all the songs that you like and all the songs that you want to play in your set, and learn all the vocal melodies to each. It is standard policy in our band that before you can ask to do a solo part in any song, you must have mastered the vocal melody first. From this you will learn alot of natural skips in the scale that work well over chords and you will be using full scales and exotic as well. good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members violence jackof Posted November 25, 2004 Members Share Posted November 25, 2004 could also be your phrasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Faber Posted November 25, 2004 Members Share Posted November 25, 2004 Learn chords and arpeggios. I've found that the more I've learned about these the less I rely on scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratKat Posted November 26, 2004 Members Share Posted November 26, 2004 Some good advice here for ya! Here's my two cents for what its worth... Most players start off with the pents (major and minor) and learn the patterns for them so they can move them up and down the neck. Then they learn the normal minor and Major scales to add more to their knowledge. Next they learn the melodic and harmonic minors... But if you want to stay in the feel and style of the pents try the blues scales. They are based on the pents but add a string stretch and/or a three note chromatic here and there in the scale to add flavor. And, the blues scale can be played in 5 different positions, each with its own pattern and flavor. If interested in this or some other odd stuff download my freebie leesons on my site at www.stratkat.com . Or just go out and download scale patterns from any free site that has them. I have the weird "open string scales" for country that are wild for getting attention when played right in the lessons too. They are NOT what most people think of when they hear the name "Open String Scale". They are difficult to master and require tons of practice to be able to use them on the fly. But when done right they make your lead sound like you are using a delay pedal when in fact you are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members digiology Posted November 26, 2004 Author Members Share Posted November 26, 2004 Thanks for all the advice, I checked out 'Chord house', somehow I hoped there would be some secret unusual scales that I'd discover if I tried them all, it turns out that most of them are the common scales (minor, pents, majors) mixed together. And oddly enough most of the don't sound too musical to me! thanks again all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheSandwich Posted November 26, 2004 Members Share Posted November 26, 2004 Originally posted by digiology Thanks for all the advice, I checked out 'Chord house', somehow I hoped there would be some secret unusual scales that I'd discover if I tried them all, it turns out that most of them are the common scales (minor, pents, majors) mixed together. And oddly enough most of the don't sound too musical to me!thanks again all! Study some of your favorite solos. All scales are is suggestions, really. Plus, EVERYONE needs work on phrasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members acousticbilly Posted November 26, 2004 Members Share Posted November 26, 2004 Originally posted by TheSandwich Plus, EVERYONE needs work on phrasing. Darn tootin! I took a class once where we were practicing different improv techniques. One in particular stood out, both because I was incredibly not good at it and because it really drove home the importance of phrasing. What the teacher did is give each of us some jam time over a certain progression, with the restriction that the only note we could use was the tonic. Holy crap is that hard, but it makes the point really well. After we had done that, we tried again with two or three possible notes to choose from, and then added a couple more, then a couple more. Definitely added some perspective on the importance of phrasing. I'm still not good at that one-note thing.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Auggie Doggie Posted November 26, 2004 Members Share Posted November 26, 2004 Originally posted by digiology Thanks for all the advice, I checked out 'Chord house', somehow I hoped there would be some secret unusual scales that I'd discover if I tried them all, it turns out that most of them are the common scales (minor, pents, majors) mixed together. And oddly enough most of the don't sound too musical to me! It's important to understand that scales are not music! They are merely building blocks; from scales we derive harmonies (chords) and melodies. The notes of a given scale are like words; they must be used in some kind of meaningful fashion if they are to become music. The biggest mistake a lot of young players make when starting improvise is that they just play the 'right' scales over a chord progression, with little to no regard for melody. (Of course, countless teachers and authors have encouraged that approach, so they're the ones to blame.) If you want to be a melodic player, you have to, well, play melodies!! In order to do that, you have to learn melodies...LOTS of them (as was mentioned by someone earlier). Vocal melodies, piano, tuba, flugelhorn, etc., it doesn't matter the source; the sense of 'melody' can only sink in via osmosis or immersion. Along with a sense of melody comes a sense of phrasing; the two go hand in hand. So, instead of trying to get blood from a stone (aka musical results from pure scales), start learning melodies...listen to them...play them...over and over again. One doesn't need a huge vocabulary of scales; the major and minor scales can go a long way once you get to know what can be done with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tha extremist21 Posted November 27, 2004 Members Share Posted November 27, 2004 with so many guitarists around its definitly hard to be unique. this used to drive me crazy. but just keep going man. you'll get there soon enough. start learning more scales,chords,theory, and you'll see a MAJOR improvement. also, try not let other guitarists playing have too much of an influence on you or else you'll end up sounding like a watered down virsion of them...and no1 wants that, unless ur in a cover band Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tha extremist21 Posted November 27, 2004 Members Share Posted November 27, 2004 Originally posted by Auggie Doggie It's important to understand that scales are not music! They are merely building blocks; from scales we derive harmonies (chords) and melodies. The notes of a given scale are like words; they must be used in some kind of meaningful fashion if they are to become music. The biggest mistake a lot of young players make when starting improvise is that they just play the 'right' scales over a chord progression, with little to no regard for melody. (Of course, countless teachers and authors have encouraged that approach, so they're the ones to blame.) If you want to be a melodic player, you have to, well, play melodies!! In order to do that, you have to learn melodies...LOTS of them (as was mentioned by someone earlier). Vocal melodies, piano, tuba, flugelhorn, etc., it doesn't matter the source; the sense of 'melody' can only sink in via osmosis or immersion. Along with a sense of melody comes a sense of phrasing; the two go hand in hand. So, instead of trying to get blood from a stone (aka musical results from pure scales), start learning melodies...listen to them...play them...over and over again. One doesn't need a huge vocabulary of scales; the major and minor scales can go a long way once you get to know what can be done with them. +2000000034353533 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pncampbell Posted December 8, 2004 Members Share Posted December 8, 2004 somehow I hoped there would be some secret unusual scales Yeah weve all been thourgh that phase It does come as quite a shock to many people when they work out an distinctive solo by a famous guitarist only to discover that the scales used are the same scales that they already know. The "secret" of distinctive soloing is melody and secret of melody is interacting with the underlying chord tones to create tension and resolution. Learning more scales is almost never the right solution for breaking out of a playing rut. IME most people just need to learn alot more about the foundations of scales they already think they know. Listen to melodies, copy them, analyse them, understand them, create your own. Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dawn Posted December 8, 2004 Members Share Posted December 8, 2004 Originally posted by Auggie Doggie It's important to understand that scales are not music! They are merely building blocks; from scales we derive harmonies (chords) and melodies. The notes of a given scale are like words; they must be used in some kind of meaningful fashion if they are to become music. The biggest mistake a lot of young players make when starting improvise is that they just play the 'right' scales over a chord progression, with little to no regard for melody. (Of course, countless teachers and authors have encouraged that approach, so they're the ones to blame.) If you want to be a melodic player, you have to, well, play melodies!! In order to do that, you have to learn melodies...LOTS of them (as was mentioned by someone earlier). Vocal melodies, piano, tuba, flugelhorn, etc., it doesn't matter the source; the sense of 'melody' can only sink in via osmosis or immersion. Along with a sense of melody comes a sense of phrasing; the two go hand in hand. So, instead of trying to get blood from a stone (aka musical results from pure scales), start learning melodies...listen to them...play them...over and over again. One doesn't need a huge vocabulary of scales; the major and minor scales can go a long way once you get to know what can be done with them. Right on the money!!! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LosBoleros Posted December 8, 2004 Members Share Posted December 8, 2004 Angus Young is Under Rated. The guy plays nothing but pentatonic scales. He mixes it up between major and minor pentatonic but that is all. He is one of my favorite blues guitarists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rushko81 Posted December 9, 2004 Members Share Posted December 9, 2004 I hear you. I started lesson in 2000 with a Berklee grad, but then I moved away. He left me in the minor pentatonic ruts! I want to get out of this rut as much as you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rushko81 Posted December 9, 2004 Members Share Posted December 9, 2004 it's me agaim; just forgot to follow suit and detail my setup: Guitarification: Cream Fender Mexican Strat and S-series Ibanez HSH with Floyd Rose (I hate the Floyd man!) Effectification: MXR Distortion+, Digitech RP100 effects module, Original CryBaby Wah Wah, DOD flashback fuzz (why I bought it I don't know) Amplification (my pride and joy): Fender Hot Rod Deluxe with Eminence 12" speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members digiology Posted December 10, 2004 Author Members Share Posted December 10, 2004 Originally posted by pncampbell Listen to melodies, copy them, analyse them, understand them, create your own. Can you expand on this please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pncampbell Posted December 10, 2004 Members Share Posted December 10, 2004 I suppose what I'm saying is to look deeper into why things that sound cool to you actually sound that way. It wont be because there is some "secret" scale being used - it will be how the lead/solo notes relate to chord tones. Youve got to go beyond relying on just slapping your fingers down randomly inside some rote-learned visual shape. Youve got to forge a link between notes that you hear/imagine and what your fingers play. The best of doing this varies with individuals but usually involves some combination of transcribing (or "copying by ear") other peoples stuff, aquiring some fairly deep theoretical knowledge and a fair amount of structured ear training. Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LightningFast Posted December 10, 2004 Members Share Posted December 10, 2004 Use this scale for minor pentatonic: Minor pentatonic: 1st string 12-14-152nd string 12-13-153rd string 11-12-144th string 11-12-145th string 12-146th string 12-14-15 This would be in the key of E minor. Have a rythm in E minor going in the background and then slowly play the notes of this scale. You will quickly begin to hear the sounds of the notes and how they fit. This same scale can also be used for the key of G. Another variation for minor would be to use12-14-15 on every string. It isn't a correct scale but if you use it right you can do more than just pentatonic. Another variation for major would be: This is not a correct scale either, but it can give you a little more choice. 1st 12-13-152nd 12-13-153rd 11-12-144th 11-12-145th 11-12-146th 12-14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Originally posted by LightningFast Use this scale for minor pentatonic: Minor pentatonic: 1st string 12-14-15 2nd string 12-13-15 3rd string 11-12-14 4th string 11-12-14 5th string 12-14 6th string 12-14-15 This would be in the key of E minor. Have a rythm in E minor going in the background and then slowly play the notes of this scale. You will quickly begin to hear the sounds of the notes and how they fit. This same scale can also be used for the key of G. This is just the E natural minor scale. It also has seven notes, so it's not a pentatonic (which is your point I guess, but it shouldn't be labelled as a pentatonic). Another variation for minor would be to use 12-14-15 on every string. It isn't a correct scale but if you use it right you can do more than just pentatonic. Another variation for major would be: This is not a correct scale either, but it can give you a little more choice. 1st 12-13-15 2nd 12-13-15 3rd 11-12-14 4th 11-12-14 5th 11-12-14 6th 12-14 These 'scales' might be alright for playing a really fast run where the actual pitches are less relevant, but as soon as you begin to hold any of those notes for any ammount of time, there will be trouble since a number of them would clash badly against the chords (there is a good way to clash though! ) Personally, I find it just as easy to play a fast run up a scale where the pattern changes every string or so as it is to play something uniform like that, so I go with the scale that sounds best as a whole with the harmony I'm playing over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LightningFast Posted December 11, 2004 Members Share Posted December 11, 2004 Thanks for clarifying. Didn't mean to be misleading. Just offering a variety of notes to choose from. I know from personal experience that when I started out, I didn't know the proper scales to use, but it didn't matter as long as I ended on the right note. People use to call me Eddie Van Halen. Oops. That'll get some outraged comments. "what???!!!You???!!!Sounding like EVH????!!!!!" Yeap. In Mntn Spring Arkansas, with the bluegrass players, they use to say, "Chet Attkins couldn't hold a candlestick for you to see by." He,he,he. I can hear more outrage. I offer one more scale pattern which is good for getting out of pentatonic. It starts on the fifth string with the root. E minor. Oops, E natural minor. 1st string 7-8-102nd string 7-8-103rd string 7-94th string 7-9-105th string 7-9-10 Try different patterns of going through these notes. 1st string 7-8-10-8-7-8-7- ------72nd string -- -- -- -- ---10 -----10-8-10-8-7-7 or 1st string 10-8-7--- -- --8-7-- -- ----72nd string ------- - -10-- -- -- -10-8-- --10-8-7---10-8-7-7 Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Originally posted by LightningFast I know from personal experience that when I started out, I didn't know the proper scales to use, but it didn't matter as long as I ended on the right note. People use to call me Eddie Van Halen. Heh, there is some truth to that. There's a saying that if you begin strong and end strong, nobody will remember what went in the middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bobthemerciful Posted December 14, 2004 Members Share Posted December 14, 2004 Originally posted by pncampbell I suppose what I'm saying is to look deeper into why things that sound cool to you actually sound that way. It wont be because there is some "secret" scale being used - it will be how the lead/solo notes relate to chord tones. Youve got to go beyond relying on just slapping your fingers down randomly inside some rote-learned visual shape. Youve got to forge a link between notes that you hear/imagine and what your fingers play. The best of doing this varies with individuals but usually involves some combination of transcribing (or "copying by ear") other peoples stuff, aquiring some fairly deep theoretical knowledge and a fair amount of structured ear training. Paul. +1,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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