Modes, Why so much conflict?

[JeffN]

So, when a guitarist decides that the C major scale is too bland to play on top of a Cmaj and decides to play C lydian over it, what he's actually doing is changing the function of the chord from Ionian to Lydian? Ultimately changing the key the song's in from C to G, at least temporarily?

So wouln't it be hazardous to do this over a progression that is obviously in C major, like C Am7 G7 C . And play with a #4 in the first and last chords?

Sorry if I'm not making much sense. My head feels like a stone after reading four pages worth.

[lazaraga]

Originally posted by JeffN So, when a guitarist decides that the C major scale is too bland to play on top of a Cmaj and decides to play C lydian over it, what he's actually doing is changing the function of the chord from Ionian to Lydian? Ultimately changing the key the song's in from C to G, at least temporarily? So wouln't it be hazardous to do this over a progression that is obviously in C major, like C Am7 G7 C . And play with a #4 in the first and last chords? Sorry if I'm not making much sense. My head feels like a stone after reading four pages worth.

 

 

it's all a matter of taste.

 

i hear lydian as a major sound, and also as a tonic type sound. depending on how it is used.

it will give you a brighter, jazzier sound. the harmony won't be so nailed down, and you can take greater liberties with it.

 

you made good sense, sorry if i am not

 

peace

[JeffN]

Originally posted by lazaraga it's all a matter of taste. i hear lydian as a major sound, and also as a tonic type sound. depending on how it is used. it will give you a brighter, jazzier sound. the harmony won't be so nailed down, and you can take greater liberties with it. you made good sense, sorry if i am not peace

Then in that sense, we're using C lydian more like a scale than using it for a modal quality?

are we allowed to do that?

[Factor]

Originally posted by JeffN Then in that sense, we're using C lydian more like a scale than using it for a modal quality? are we allowed to do that?

Yes. The way of using the various modal scales as a variation of the normal scales (major, minor) is the way that seem to be most useful. Sure enough, you have the modal progressions and modal tonalities, but the truth remains, most of the music which we play today is tonal. In this respect, modal scales are seen as variations.

C major and C lydian differs by only one note, the F#. This note obviously sounds different from an F, over a C major harmony that is.

[lazaraga]

Originally posted by JeffN Then in that sense, we're using C lydian more like a scale than using it for a modal quality? are we allowed to do that?

it depends!

i try to do what i think sounds good, i advise you to do the same!

the only time i use a mode in a modal sense would be in a modal tune or vamp. ie- the C-9 section of crescent, all of so what, etc.

but yes, when talking of substitutions i think of using lydian as a scale rather than a mode. make any sense? it kinda makes a little sense to me...


peace

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by JeffN Then in that sense, we're using C lydian more like a scale than using it for a modal quality? are we allowed to do that?

yes it's taste. As Poparad said earlier, if the chords are changing steadily, changing scales might sound strange but that may be what you are after. If the chords hold for a while, youhave more freedom to change keys. C Lydian can be used as an integral part of G major key, or thown into a C vamp anytime you feel the need for it and there can also be entire compositions based on the lydian mode. (as in the theme to The Simpsons.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Factor Yes. The way of using the various modal scales as a variation of the normal scales (major, minor) is the way that seem to be most useful. Sure enough, you have the modal progressions and modal tonalities, but the truth remains, most of the music which we play today is tonal. In this respect, modal scales are seen as variations.

 

 

Excellent point.

[RisingSun]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie all 12 notes and their various names, and how to read them in (gasp!) standard notation (it's not that hard!!!).

 

This is only necesary to be able to communicate with other musicians easily. The notation is just a way to represent sounds in written form and in spoken word. The important thing is to learn the actual sounds represented. The goal isn't to be able to say, "Oh this is a X chord, I should play X kind of scale to get the sound I want," but rather to be able to say something like, "Oh, that's that sound, I should play ." If someone translates what they want to play into musical notation in their head before they play it, I wouldn't say they are fluent in guitar yet (in reference to the language analogy). If someone translates what they hear someone play into notes and theory in their head before they are able to play it on guitar, rather than hearing it and then being able to play it, I wouldn't say that person is fluent in guitar. It is perfectly possibly for someone to be fluent in guitar without knowing any theory, notation, or even what any of the notes on the finger board are. Theory, notation, and notes is just one way to help learn music and instruments. I believe learning some theory will help everyone learn quicker in the beginning, but some people need less theory than others before they are able to learn the rest by ear with less dificulty (usually those with good ears and a natural sense of music).

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by RisingSun This is only necesary to be able to communicate with other musicians easily. The notation is just a way to represent sounds in written form and in spoken word. Theory, notation, and notes is just one way to help learn music and instruments. The post of mine from which you extracted that quote was in regard to a logical sequence of learning theory. In no way was it meant to suggest that that's how you learn how to simply play the instrument. I believe learning some theory will help everyone learn quicker in the beginning, In the very beginning, a musician should be learning fundamentals. Basic skills (especially reading notes on a staff and knowing where they are on the instrument) become even MORE important the further advanced the player gets. but some people need less theory than others before they are able to learn the rest by ear with less dificulty (usually those with good ears and a natural sense of music).

 

 

 

There are LOTS of things that are far too complex to simply learn 'by ear', no matter how gifted the person is. Basic reading skills are essential when it comes to learning certain things, and there's no legitimate excuse to avoid learning how to recognize notes on a staff; 5-year-old kids can learn this pretty quickly...there's no reason why guitarists can't learn it too. Guitarists, due to the nature of the instrument, are at risk of playing a game of pattern association and paint-by-numbers instead of truly understanding what they're trying to study.

 

Also, I don't advocate the study of theory in a vacuum; ear-training is an essential part of it. Any and all theotical concepts must be heard in actual use; examples are worth their weight in gold. They must also be applied (played) by the musician, whether by playing someone else's examples or writing their own. Music is learned by doing, and I don't downplay the importance of listening skills, but they alone are only a PART of the big picture.

[fancynapkin]

Originally posted by LosBoleros Sorry, but I don't really understand what you are saying. Can you give us an example? Like, "while playing a X chord I solo with Y mode and I can't establish the root." X=? Y=? mode=?

 

 

playing a progression in A major/ionian, I play the C# as the root (Ie, putting most of my emphasis there).

[Poparad]

Originally posted by fancynapkin playing a progression in A major/ionian, I play the C# as the root (Ie, putting most of my emphasis there).

 

 

If you're playing over an A major chord, it will always be A Ionian no matter what note you emphasize. You can bring out different colors by landing on different notes, but it will always be A Ionian. The only way to change the mode is to either change the chord, or change the notes you're playing.

 

If the 'progression' was a C#m chord (modal progressions work best with few chords) and you played the A major scale over it, then you'd be playing C# phrygian. Only on C#m will it be C# phrygian.

 

Back to A major agian, if you changed scales so that there was a D# (#4) instead of a D (4), you went from Ionian to Lydian over the A major chord. That is the only way to play a different mode over the same chord.

[Little Dreamer]

It is perfectly possibly for someone to be fluent in guitar without knowing any theory,

I get this odd mental image of an American who's "fluent" in German, standing on a streetcorner in Duesseldorf, jumping up and down frantically yelling "Das bathroomen! Ich bin das bathroomen!"

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by Poparad If you're playing over an A major chord, it will always be A Ionian no matter what note you emphasize. You can bring out different colors by landing on different notes, but it will always be A Ionian. The only way to change the mode is to either change the chord, or change the notes you're playing.

Now That was some nice phrasing!