Modes, Why so much conflict?

[lazaraga]

Originally posted by Poparad It took three pages to really heat up, but your thread title is now satisfied LosBoleros.

i always looked at this thread title thinking, what conflict? never read it till right now.

[cryptozoon]

The bottom line is a lot of guitarists confuse positions with modes. Just because one has navigated up or down the neck to accomodate easier access to notes within a key doesn't necessarily mean one has moved out of the key or changed the tonal center of the melodic line, or the piece as a whole. The fingering of each position is just a means to access any given mode with a greater degree of facility, but you've got change to tonal center to go modal. Thank you Walter Piston.

As for what tonal center means - if you're playing in E, the tonal center is E and you know you're in E because you resolve to E; the music WANTS to resolve on E.

[GreatestGains]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie You're making perfect sense; now we just have to convince several hundred thousand other guitarists to follow your lead.

I agree, and the Circle of Fourths (Fifths) is also a great tool. This takes the mechanics out of the mix and really gets down to brass tacks on the chord/mode relationships. Helped me alot...Here are some great links that offer a little more insight into the circle.

http://www.scroom.com/mus_lessons/tot.5.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths

Thanks for starting this thread. You have most certainly proven the point beyond a shadow of a doubt. Guitar instructors and publications overwhelmingly miss the boat when teaching modes. I'll offer up two more points that put the nail in this coffin:

1) The discussion of "modal patterns versus tonal relationship" would never occur in a piano forum (or for many other instruments as you noted earlier.)

2) I challenge anyone to produce the name of a guitar method book that covers the chord/mode relationships in depth, before showing the player all umpteen mode patterns at every fret position.


My .02! Good discussion!

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by Singingax In what 'sense' are there 'all 12 notes'? In what 'sense' are 'there more than all 12 notes'? In what 'sense' are there 'less than all 12 notes'? {more sophist 'nonsense', and not much chance of a direct answer, from MorePaul to follow}

sorry for the delay in responding there Axe (on vacation)

hey! I thought I was on your "ignore" list

The 'sense' of all 12 notes comes from a 12 tone chromatic view

the 'sense' of more-than-12 notes comes from a fully chromatic view based on the pathagorean condcordances (remember our Stravinsky conversation )

the 'sense' of less than all 12 notes' is a diatonic sensability

you do call it 'sophist', but then again...you did erase about 8 months worth of posts you made on the subject
(I suspect the reason you have to use 'sophist' with me is because your ususal tacitc of 'the indoctrinated blind' isn't particularly effective as I'm used to the other notational systems...it's a fairly transparent attempt to discredit without, as you put it, a "straight answer" to it)

I contend that I've always given you a direct response here (remember back when you were trying to deveopl your own system and we had to steer you to examples you now cite such as OZ -- there are deeper systems, however, which you seem to refuse to explore..."used to the squirre"l as you say)

[Auggie Doggie]

Imagine my surprise a few minutes ago when I saw myself posting some of the exact same things at another forum...one I am NOT a member of! :D

Nothing like seeing 'originally posted by Auggie Doggie' at ibreathemusic.com's forum.

Made my day.

[LosBoleros]

You should join it, I could use your help.

[Singingax]

 

Originally posted by MorePaul sorry for the delay in responding there Axe (on vacation) hey! I thought I was on your "ignore" list That's a vacation for both of us since you seem to lack the ability to answer a simple question with a simple answer. And you're still on my ignore list, and happily (for me) so. I'll skip clicking on the 'see post' along with your typical sophistic responses. Lifes to short to waste my time on them. The 'sense' of all 12 notes comes from a 12 tone chromatic view Care to name these '12 notes'? (or tones?) And what you mean by a '12 tone chromatic view'? you do call it 'sophist', but then again...you did erase about 8 months worth of posts you made on the subject yup. 8 months of getting sophist ramblings instead of a simple answer to a simple question. It must have been pretty dissapointing to ladel it (your sophisms) on so thick and then have it all deleted. (didn't bother me a bit) (I suspect the reason you have to use 'sophist' with me is because your ususal tacitc of 'the indoctrinated blind' isn't particularly effective as I'm used to the other notational systems...it's a fairly transparent attempt to discredit without, as you put it, a "straight answer" to it) 'I suspect' that you wouldn't know a 'straight (or simple) answer if it walked up and bit you on the ass. Your sophists ramblings 'discredit' themselves. (which is 'transparent' to anyone that's studied sophism) I contend that I've always given you a direct response here (remember back when you were trying to deveopl your own system and we had to steer you to examples you now cite such as OZ -- there are deeper systems, however, which you seem to refuse to explore..."used to the squirre"l as you say)

 

 

Your whole (typical) response is why you're on (and shall remain on) my ignore list.

 

You claim (or 'suspect' or 'contend') things that aren't true, to frame the question in a way that you can then respond to in your typical sophist fashion.

 

Just like you repeatedly saying I was trying to develop my own system, or you had to 'steer' me to OZ. OZ is just one persons attempt do what I suggest be done, and that is to name the 12 BBB the tempered scale yeilds, nothing else. (I don't like or use even OZ myself)

 

The 12 BBB are a product of the tempered scale, they're not a system I'm 'trying to developed'. And, at this point, you usually ask 'which tempered scale?' (a typical sophistic move) when a dictionary defines a tempered scale AS being half-step.

 

You definitely know how to squire"l around instead of giving a simple answer to a simple question. (something I 'suspect' and 'contend' you lack the ability to give)

 

But since talk about the tempered scale hasn't entered this thread (and should)

here's the OZ website others to chew on:

 

http://www.greshak.com/notation/oz/ozpitch.htm

 

It's funny (and rather strange) how the tempered scale never gets mentioned much when it's probably the first thing any guitarist (and any musician) should learn about.

 

Now, do you or Auggie Doggie care to name (simply) those '12 notes'?

 

 

P.S. All music is based on patterns!

[Terje]

Originally posted by Singingax ... a dictionary defines a tempered scale AS being half-step.

 

 

And you're a guy who would rather follow the dictate of a dictionary than listen to the music. Cause you don't care about what it sounds like you just want your system to be logical.

 

The simple fact is though that we do not use only the tempered scale when playing, we mix it with the absolute scale too, depending on our instruments limitations of course (piano players find it difficult to do anything about this). Singers, violinists and slide players, and anyone who can intonate manually will lower the major 3rds, by instinct. They sound better that way.

 

And for this reason alone (there are otheres, we've been through this) it still makes sense to call the notes by more than one name each. All notes in the current system have more than one name (as you should know by now, Cb and B# do exist, as well as E# and Fb).

 

Ah, but you don't care, you just want to feel special. Alright then, you win. You are special. You are extremely dumb for instance, that's not for everyone.

[LosBoleros]

We are talking about modes here as they apply to the Western system of Equal Temperament. If you have something to add to this discussion, please do so. If it is unrelated, please start another thread.

[Singingax]

Originally posted by LightningFast Mr. Auggie Doggie, Why are you so upset with how people are taught or not taught? Did some "unlearned" modalist show you up on guitar or something? Maybe at a local guitar shop?

 

Probably!

 

He (Auggie Doggie) is probably a great note reader though.

 

I love how these 'you have to learn to read standard notation to know music theory' guys conveniently forget that guitar was originally notated in TAB!

 

Or that shapes and patterns are an integral part of music theory, especially when playing an instrument that uses the tempered scale.

[Singingax]

 

Originally posted by Terje And you're a guy who would rather follow the dictate of a dictionary than listen to the music. Cause you don't care about what it sounds like you just want your system to be logical. The 'system' (not mine) is logical. It's called the Tempered Scale. The simple fact is though that we do not use only the tempered scale when playing, we mix it with the absolute scale too, depending on our instruments limitations of course (piano players find it difficult to do anything about this). Singers, violinists and slide players, and anyone who can intonate manually will lower the major 3rds, by instinct. They sound better that way. And for this reason alone (there are otheres, we've been through this) it still makes sense to call the notes by more than one name each. All notes in the current system have more than one name (as you should know by now, Cb and B# do exist, as well as E# and Fb). This from the same person that had the sense to admit that half the reason the 7 letter tone naming scheme has you playing the 'name the note' game is because it uses 7 letters? What 'makes sense' is to call the 12 BBB of the tempered scale 12 distinct names. And the 7 letter tone naming scheme doesn't name micro tones, so you're suggesting it as a reason to call one note (on the guitar) by two names doesn't fly. Ah, but you don't care, you just want to feel special. Alright then, you win. You are special. You are extremely dumb for instance, that's not for everyone.

 

 

 

I'm not trying to 'feel special' or 'win' anything. What I 'don't care' to do is play the name the note game thanks to using the 7 letter tone naming scheme.

 

I want 12 distinct names for 12 distinct BBB of the tempered scale. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

It's 'extremely dumb' to assume otherwise.

[MorePaul]

Axe -

thank you for your input

To facilitate the various discussions, your recent comments have been moved to the "singingax Lounge" to allow you to express your views on the naming/notation issues that concern you

[Singingax]

 

Originally posted by LosBoleros We are talking about modes here as they apply to the Western system of Equal Temperament. If you have something to add to this discussion, please do so. If it is unrelated, please start another thread.

 

 

OK.

 

{The following modes are shown based on their half-step pattern from the root shown in red using the 12 BBB of the Tempered scale.}

 

Major/Ionian mode:

0-2-4-5-7-9-11

RT-2-3-4-5-6-7

 

Dorain mode:

0-2-3-5-7--9-10

RT-2-b3-4-5-6-b7

 

Phrygian mode:

O-1-3-5-7-8-10

RT-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7

 

Lydian mode:

0-2-4-6-7-9-11

RT-2-3-#4-5-6-7

 

Mixolydian mode:

0-2-4-5-7-9-10

RT-2-3-4-5-6-b7

 

Aeolian mode:

0-2-3-5-7-8-10

RT-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7

 

Locrian mode:

0-1-3-5-6-8-10

RT-b2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7

[MorePaul]

you can show them in a number of ways -- there are multiple numberic, staff, geometric (shape), even color

the systems have their strengths, weakneeses and contet


for further conversation on the subject, please visit the "singingax Lounge"

[ctoddrun]

I read in this long thread along the way that some folks mention that I should learn how to play the same melody using every mode of the major scale.

Can I get some clarification on this?

To my way of thinking (a theory novice, mind you) the melody will be based on a set of intervals between the notes involved, and it doesnt make sense to me about learning a melody in other modes, which would alter the interval relationship, otherwise, you'd just be playing that same melody in a different register on the guitar. Same interval relationship, different pitches.

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by ctoddrun I read in this long thread along the way that some folks mention that I should learn how to play the same melody using every mode of the major scale. Can I get some clarification on this? .

No problem, This is merely an excersise that will help you to:

Take a Riff in the key of A minor like:

Now you learned how to transpose the same riff to another mode. You could play the first riff over Am then the second riff over Dm. This excercise works in all the modes and for all the chords.

[ctoddrun]

Cool.

With no guitar in my hand I have no frame of reference, but when I get home tonight, I'll be checking it out.

Appreciate the info.

[Guran]

First of all thank you all for a really nice thread!
I find this very interesting because I have always thought that the modes are "the holy grail of soloing" and I've never had any chance to learn it in my own language (swedish) all I've had was some articles on the internet that I understand now, have not been very helpful.

However this year I started a music education and I've learned music theory from the basics. I also get guitar lessons every week and its really helping my previously self-taught playing.
Because I've always wanted to learn to play modal music I asked my teacher if he could teach me the modes... He said he could teach me the basics but that he wasnt really good at it himself and after what I have read now I think he was right.

I dont really understand what you guys are saying...
And I apologize if I am that annoying guy that asks for things that I'm not ready for.

If a mode only is how tones relate to a chord, then what is the practical use of learning it. If I have a song that is in the key of Cmajor. Then if I understand you correctly I can just play the Cmajor scale over the whole song and if a Dm7 happens to come by I'm playing a Dorian mode? And if theres a G7 I'm playing mixolydian? If this is all there is to it then when does these cool tones come in that really doesnt belong in that key.

After the basics I've been tought (right or wrong, I dont know) I thought that I could play the dorian scale (please dont shoot me because I thought they were scales ) over any minor7 chord.

I would be really grateful if someone could clarify this for me so I dont have to learn it the wrong way.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Guran If a mode only is how tones relate to a chord, then what is the practical use of learning it. If I have a song that is in the key of Cmajor. Then if I understand you correctly I can just play the Cmajor scale over the whole song and if a Dm7 happens to come by I'm playing a Dorian mode? And if theres a G7 I'm playing mixolydian? If this is all there is to it then when does these cool tones come in that really doesnt belong in that key.

 

 

 

Modes really come into play when the music isn't functioning in a particular key. A song in the key of C major revolves around a C major chord. Most of Western music of the past couple hundred years has been based around an elaborate system of harmony involving keys.

 

 

Modal music is simpler, and was originally the predecessor to 'classical' music. Music is modal when it's not always resolving back to the I chord of a major or minor key. Modal music uses a different chord from the key and uses that as its 'tonic.'

 

A one chord vamp on a Dm7 chord, using the notes D E F G A B C for melody/solos/etc, is in D dorian. Yes, it has the notes of the key of C, but there isn't a C major chord to be seen or heard.

 

That vamp in Dm could very well use the notes D Eb F G A Bb C, or D phrygian. By just changing two notes, the sound drastically changes, even though the chord is still just Dm7. This is the essence of modes. Modes are different flavors of major and minor sounds. You might even think of them as variations on the major and natural minor scales.

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by Guran If a mode only is how tones relate to a chord, then what is the practical use of learning it. If I have a song that is in the key of Cmajor. Then if I understand you correctly I can just play the Cmajor scale over the whole song and if a Dm7 happens to come by I'm playing a Dorian mode? And if theres a G7 I'm playing mixolydian?

 

Actually there are modes and then there is modal music (or modal progressions)

The most fundamental aspect of modes is as you said above. Playing C major scale over C chord is ionian, C major scale over Dm is dorian, C major scale over Em is phrygian, etc, etc. The only thing that changes is your point of refference. Your resolution notes, 1,3,5 change location in each mode and your dissonant notes, 2,4,6 change location in each mode. Your 7 can be used for both tention or resolution.

 

Originally posted by Guran If this is all there is to it then when does these cool tones come in that really doesnt belong in that key.

 

Now in modal progressions, as Poparad explained, you are using the same concept but your tonality is not based on the key signature. What I mean by that is that if the Chord is Dm and the notes you are using for the melody are D,E,F,G,A,B, then the key signature is showing no flats or sharps indicating the key of C but your tonality is based on Dm or Dm6 and that B note (that would otherwise be Bb in the key of Dm) gives that modal flavor.

[Guran]

Okay, thanks.. things are a little clearer now.

But if I want to learn this aspect of playing solos and making melodys what do I do?

Have I understood it right if I say that I can play any minor mode over any minor chord? And any major mode over any major chord? Then can I just learn which modes are minor and which are major and also learn how they sound over the chord?

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Guran Okay, thanks.. things are a little clearer now. But if I want to learn this aspect of playing solos and making melodys what do I do? Have I understood it right if I say that I can play any minor mode over any minor chord? And any major mode over any major chord? Then can I just learn which modes are minor and which are major and also learn how they sound over the chord?

 

 

Exactly. Now, if a progresssion is very diatonic, or all within one key, it's going to sound really weird if you keep changing modes every chord (and essentially changing keys). But, if the progression is a little more outside of a certain key, then using different modes works much better. Also, if the progression doesn't move quite as fast, and more time is spend on each chord, then using different modes on each chord will work a little better.

[fancynapkin]

I definently jumped on modes to early, only because I happen to have so much damn courses on modes. I don't even have fret-note names memorized fully yet.

I don't see what the fuss is all about with modes though, isn't just changing the tonic in a key signature? therefore changing harmonies, and changing the feel of the scale?

The only problem I have is when im improvisng, I can never really establish a root note, and if I do, on instinct its always the 3rd (phyrigian) degree, even if Im playing in dorian.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by fancynapkin I definently jumped on modes to early, only because I happen to have so much damn courses on modes. I don't even have fret-note names memorized fully yet. I don't see what the fuss is all about with modes though, isn't just changing the tonic in a key signature? therefore changing harmonies, and changing the feel of the scale?

 

 

Pretty much.

 

 

The only problem I have is when im improvisng, I can never really establish a root note, and if I do, on instinct its always the 3rd (phyrigian) degree, even if Im playing in dorian.

 

 

 

The third of a chord is actually, I would argue, the most defining element. If you take a solo that frequently outlines the thirds of the chords in a progression and take it away from the accompaniment, you can still hear the chords going by. Roots are an ok note, but the third is a much more interesting note to keep hitting in a solo.

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by fancynapkin The only problem I have is when im improvisng, I can never really establish a root note, and if I do, on instinct its always the 3rd (phyrigian) degree, even if Im playing in dorian.

 

Sorry, but I don't really understand what you are saying.

Can you give us an example?

 

Like, "while playing a X chord I solo with Y mode and I can't establish the root."

 

X=?

Y=?

mode=?