ii-V-I ? ?

[raggety]

i'm getting kinda bored of the way I IV V sounds. so i have been looking to learn some new things. this ii-V-I thing sounds cool but how does it go?

 

for EG.. in the key of C major would it be.... Dminor/Gmajor/Cmajor is that right?

 

 

BUT what if youre starting it in a Minor key ? say in Eminor? (I don't really knowany minor scales yet? )

 

 

please dont get too technical in any answers, as i get a bit confused by the really hard stuff !

 

oh also I IV7 I in C would be Dminor/Gmaj7/Cmajor is that right?

[Help!I'maRock!]

the easiest way to think about it is make everything major. Em is the relative minor of G. so a II-V-I in G would be Am-D-G.

 

i just wrote a II-V progression and coupled it with a VI, that has an ascending root. so the chorus is Dm-G, and the verse is Am7- Am7/A#-Am7/B-Am7/C. its a pretty cool start to a tune, if i do say so myself.

[Poparad]

In Cm, a ii V i would be: Dm7b5 | G7b9 | Cm7

 

There's a bit of a change in scales with the minor two five. The Dm7b5 and Cm7 are both just from the C natural minor scale. The G7b9 chord comes from the C harmonic minor scale.

 

So it goes C natural minor (Dm7b5), C harmonic minor (G7b9), C natural minor (Cm7).

 

 

For the last chord, Cm7, you can also play C dorian or C melodic minor. Here are the notes of the C minor scales for comparison:

 

C natural minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C

C harmonic minor: C D Eb F G Ab B C

C dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C

C melodic minor: C D Eb F G A B C

[LosBoleros]

Here are some examples of differerent 2-5-1 progressions. Each bring out a slightly different scale.

 

 

II7-V7-I in C major

Dm7-G7-C

 

iio-V7-i in C minor (completely diatonic)

Dm7b5-G-Cm

 

ii7-V7-i in C minor

Dm7-G7-Cm

 

II7-V7-i in C minor

D7-G7-Cm

[windmill]

Poparad

 

How did you get the b5 and b9 extensions on those chords ?

 

Is there a formula or do they just sound good ?

[Poparad]

 

Originally posted by windmill Poparad How did you get the b5 and b9 extensions on those chords ? Is there a formula or do they just sound good ?

 

 

 

They are the notes that naturally occur in the key of C minor.

 

The C natural minor scale, C D Eb F G Ab Bb C, is used for the Dm7b5 chord. If you are to build a 7th chord from the note D, you get D F Ab C, which spells Dm7b5.

 

The C harmonic minor scale is used for the G7b9 chord (C D Eb F G Ab B C) Building a 7th chord from G yeilds G B D F Ab, which is G7b9.

[raggety]

Help!I'marock! the easiest way to think about it is make everything major. Em is the relative minor of G. so a II-V-I in G would be Am-D-G.

 

does anyone have a list that i could print out and keep of relative majors and minors or way to work them out?

 

Poparad Senior Member C natural minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb C C harmonic minor: C D Eb F G Ab B C C dorian: C D Eb F G A Bb C C melodic minor: C D Eb F G A B C

 

likewise does anyone have a list or know of one that i could print out and keep of the scales shown above.

BUT in all keys? like something i could stick on the wall for reference?

 

LosBoleros i tried that 'Dm7b5-G-Cm' really nice sad sounding chords!!

 

 

thanks for the help so far every1

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by raggety LosBoleros i tried that 'Dm7b5-G-Cm' really nice sad sounding chords!!

Actually mu favorite would be the last one,

the II7-V7-i

 

I like the Diminished possibilities over the II7 as a dominant chord.

[335clone]

 

Originally posted by raggety does anyone have a list that i could print out and keep of relative majors and minors or way to work them out?

 

 

create your own in an Excel file. I can't post mine because of a firewall, but working them out helps instill them into your brain. Just write out the harmonized chords in each of the 12 keys, the m6 is the relative minor of each key.

[MorePaul]

 

Originally posted by raggety does anyone have a list that i could print out and keep of relative majors and minors or way to work them out?

 

 

The sixth sclae degree of the major will be the center of the reative minor

 

Cmaj ---> Am

 

 

--------

 

An interesting way I find to think about the ii - V - I

 

Say you are playing a I-IV-V...when you get to V...think of that as a "virtual I" and a II is the V of that virtual I... or a V(V) -- a 'five of five '.

This is 'extension of cadence' as you create sort of a "subplot" r "subcadence" that resloves to "V" (as the virtual I) and then THAT resolves to I

 

now, the ii varies the third to keep it strictly diatonic, but (as is often the case with subs) the primary implication of that (extended) cadence is still present....you might find yourself, in a sense, stacking V-I resolutions

 

anyway, just another way to look at it to get some ideas of how you might use the structure to artistic benefit

[raggety]

Originally posted by MorePaul The sixth sclae degree of the major will be the center of the reative minor Cmaj ---> Am -------- An interesting way I find to think about the ii - V - I Say you are playing a I-IV-V...when you get to V...think of that as a "virtual I" and a II is the V of that virtual I... or a V(V) -- a 'five of five '. This is 'extension of cadence' as you create sort of a "subplot" r "subcadence" that resloves to "V" (as the virtual I) and then THAT resolves to I now, the ii varies the third to keep it strictly diatonic, but (as is often the case with subs) the primary implication of that (extended) cadence is still present....you might find yourself, in a sense, stacking V-I resolutions anyway, just another way to look at it to get some ideas of how you might use the structure to artistic benefit

 

ok i understood about 75% of that so i'm getting it better.

i printed off a 'Circle of Fifths' which shows related minors so thats cool ! i can leanr them off that and yer 'Cmaj ---> Am' is a good trick for my memory

 

Another Questuion, There are only three chords in this.. ii-V-I ?

 

BUT...Not many songs have only three chords in them do they? so what could ya add to it that still works and sounds good?

 

like say you think of the V as a virtual I, could you go on and use that V as I in a I IV V then return to the ii V I you came from.

 

 

 

[LosBoleros]

Originally posted by MorePaul An interesting way I find to think about the ii - V - I Say you are playing a I-IV-V...when you get to V...think of that as a "virtual I" and a II is the V of that virtual I... or a V(V) -- a 'five of five '. This is 'extension of cadence' as you create sort of a "subplot" r "subcadence" that resloves to "V" (as the virtual I) and then THAT resolves to I now, the ii varies the third to keep it strictly diatonic, but (as is often the case with subs) the primary implication of that (extended) cadence is still present....you might find yourself, in a sense, stacking V-I resolutions anyway, just another way to look at it to get some ideas of how you might use the structure to artistic benefit

Yes yes! and with the II7-V7-i, it is more the case because the II7 bahaves as a Secondary Dominant to the V.

[Force]

Originally posted by raggety does anyone have a list that i could print out and keep of relative majors and minors or way to work them out? likewise does anyone have a list or know of one that i could print out and keep of the scales shown above. BUT in all keys? like something i could stick on the wall for reference?

 

raggety .. Here's a spreadsheet I built as I was going through the same learning process .. Hope it helps you

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by raggety

 

 

BUT...Not many songs have only three chords in them do they?

 

Tons, it's the basis of much folk, blues, classical

 

Why? well, it's sort of least common denominator... notice that I-IV-V contains all the diatonic notes (so you can diatonically harmonize...so given a diatonic melody...each note will "fit" in at least one of those)

 

like say you think of the V as a virtual I, could you go on and use that V as I in a I IV V then return to the ii V I you came from.

 

yes and no -- the "problem" is that a 4th and a 5th are compliments (add them together and you get an octave)...so it tends to "short circuit"

 

As an example

 

let's say we're in C

OK the V is G

now if we go up to the IV of G....we're right back to C

 

 

Los brings up a good point ....you can accentuate or subdue the "modulation" of treating the V as a "virtual I" depending on how you treat it

 

ii is a "light statement...an mimplication (as you've tempered the statement, by lowering the thirdto diatonically fit the true I)

 

II is a stronger staement as the third of the II is diatonic to te "virtual I"

 

II7 is yet a more definite statement as you are definitely calling out the II chord as behaving like a dominant of the "virtual I" (the V)

[raggety]

Originally posted by Force raggety .. Here's a spreadsheet I built as I was going through the same learning process .. Hope it helps you

 

thanks thats very useful

[MorePaul]

Raggety

 

I'm not sure of where you are in your theory background

 

 

While the various charts are DEFINITELY helpful as a reference (and having the examples there can really be great because you can take a look at the patterns)

 

I would advise against just rote memorization

 

ask yourself

 

Do I understand *WHY* A is the relative minor of C?

 

 

Things like diatonic harmonies (the notes in chords in a key), relative minors, etc -- you should be able to reconstruct those from basic principles without reference materials if you are understanding the underlying concepts

 

 

[raggety]

Originally posted by MorePaul Originally posted by raggety BUT...Not many songs have only three chords in them do they? Tons, it's the basis of much folk, blues, classical Why? well, it's sort of least common denominator... notice that I-IV-V contains all the diatonic notes (so you can diatonically harmonize...so given a diatonic melody...each note will "fit" in at least one of those) like say you think of the V as a virtual I, could you go on and use that V as I in a I IV V then return to the ii V I you came from. yes and no -- the "problem" is that a 4th and a 5th are compliments (add them together and you get an octave)...so it tends to "short circuit" As an example let's say we're in C OK the V is G now if we go up to the IV of G....we're right back to C Los brings up a good point ....you can accentuate or subdue the "modulation" of treating the V as a "virtual I" depending on how you treat it ii is a "light statement...an mimplication (as you've tempered the statement, by lowering the thirdto diatonically fit the true I) II is a stronger staement as the third of the II is diatonic to te "virtual I" II7 is yet a more definite statement as you are definitely calling out the II chord as behaving like a dominant of the "virtual I" (the V)     i see what you are saying there. its just that as a solo player, i find playing the same chords over & over a bit dull It gets old in about 30 seconds & i start to look for more variety   it was fine as a total beginner, but I now feel the urge to move forwards in my skill and knowledge. but this has all helped me today so thanks     i think learning some key change stuff would be beneficial to me too ?

[raggety]

 

Originally posted by MorePaul Raggety I'm not sure of where you are in your theory background While the various charts are DEFINITELY helpful as a reference (and having the examples there can really be great because you can take a look at the patterns) I would advise against just rote memorization ask yourself Do I understand *WHY* A is the relative minor of C? Things like diatonic harmonies (the notes in chords in a key), relative minors, etc -- you should be able to reconstruct those from basic principles without reference materials if you are understanding the underlying concepts

 

 

oh i'm just beyond beginner in theory stages, to be honest i find all this theory damn confusing! but it must be learnt.

[MorePaul]

Originally posted by raggety

 

 

i see what you are saying there. its just that as a solo player, i find playing the same chords over & over a bit dull It gets old in about 30 seconds & i start to look for more variety

 

One thing that can really help is to not think of chords as these monolithic structures.

 

That's a trap that, I think, it fairly easy for guitarists to fall into -- "solo voice over monolithic chords"

 

 

That doesn't have to be the case...

Like in standard 4 part "choral" harmony...each voice is a melody (how flowing, interesting and, uh...melodic...is a mark of the quality and inventiveness of the composer) , but at each point...vertically -- the voices also form a chord

 

that might just help you think outside of the "block"

 

Chords are interactions of notes...you can break them up, substitute things, add things, rearrange things

Chords are not atomic

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

i think learning some key change stuff would be beneficial to me too ?

 

Absolutely, it all ties together -- we've actually touched on it

 

you can modulate the to relative minor

 

with the extension of cadence...you can "step out" of the strictither expplicit of implied) for a brief moment

 

It's definitely good to reach, but just like reaching for something physically...you will have a better, longer, more confident reach if you have a stable base to reach from...so just tacking on more stuff without getting a good sense of wha it does can make t tough to really reach the next step

 

understanding the stuff actually makes it simpler because you don't have to do so much memorization

[MorePaul]

 

Originally posted by raggety oh i'm just beyond beginner in theory stages, to be honest i find all this theory damn confusing! but it must be learnt.

 

 

Just get really solid foundations and the rest will be like "oh yeah! OK, I can see that"

 

It's when you don't really understand step 2 that step 3 doesn't make much sense and gets confusing...

 

if you find yourself confused about something

 

ask yourself to DEMONSTRATE (to yourself) the principles of the PREVIOUS STEP

 

 

It'll come -- you're doing fine!!!! (it takes a bit just to get into the mode of thought)

 

I, for one, think it rocks mightily that you are taking the bull by the horns

 

 

and if you can -- go play with other musicians...that will kick you into overdrive pronto!

 

[alez]

Raggety, Force,

 

Just a couple of notes about Force's chart:

 

-You have used "dim" for the 7th degree chord of the major scale. This chord is called "half diminished" (diminished fifth, minor seventh). Normally, "dim" is used for the chord called "diminished" (diminished fifth, diminished seventh). So I would change the "dim" in the chart to something else like "halfdim" or something. In paper, the symbol used to note this is an "O" (as for diminished) but split in two by a slash (to indicate half).

 

-The chords described are useful for major harmony only. They should not be used to find chords in minor harmony by just changing the root to the relative minor. For example, you cannot use the first line (Cmaj) for Amin, and imply that ii-V-i would then be B-halfdim, E-min, A-min. The reason is that minor harmony is not built from the natural minor scale (which is the 6th mode of the major scale, or in other words the same major scale but taking the 6th degree as root). Instead, it is built from the harmonic minor scale (same scale, only it has a major seventh instead of the minor seventh that the natural minor scale has). This has a number of implications, the most important is that V becomes dominant, which is essential for establishing tonality, and actually is the one reason why this scale (harmonic minor) is used to build minor harmony instead of the natural one.

 

The "colors" of the 7 degrees of the harmonic minor scale are:

I min maj7

II min min7 dim5 (half diminished)

III maj maj7 aug5 (augmented)

IV min min7

V maj min7 (dominant)

VI maj maj7

VII min dim7 dim5 (diminished)

 

Cheers,

 

Alex

[LosBoleros]

 

Originally posted by alez Raggety, Force, Just a couple of notes about Force's chart: -You have used "dim" for the 7th degree chord of the major scale. This chord is called "half diminished" (diminished fifth, minor seventh). Normally, "dim" is used for the chord called "diminished" (diminished fifth, diminished seventh). So I would change the "dim" in the chart to something else like "halfdim" or something. In paper, the symbol used to note this is an "O" (as for diminished) but split in two by a slash (to indicate half). -The chords described are useful for major harmony only. They should not be used to find chords in minor harmony by just changing the root to the relative minor. For example, you cannot use the first line (Cmaj) for Amin, and imply that ii-V-i would then be B-halfdim, E-min, A-min. The reason is that minor harmony is not built from the natural minor scale (which is the 6th mode of the major scale, or in other words the same major scale but taking the 6th degree as root). Instead, it is built from the harmonic minor scale (same scale, only it has a major seventh instead of the minor seventh that the natural minor scale has). This has a number of implications, the most important is that V becomes dominant, which is essential for establishing tonality, and actually is the one reason why this scale (harmonic minor) is used to build minor harmony instead of the natural one. The "colors" of the 7 degrees of the harmonic minor scale are: I min maj7 II min min7 dim5 (half diminished) III maj maj7 aug5 (augmented) IV min min7 V maj min7 (dominant) VI maj maj7 VII min dim7 dim5 (diminished) Cheers, Alex

Dim is a proper term for the triad as all the examples are triads. The actual name on the top, viim7b5 is also correct.

 

If you are harmonising the harmonic scale, which I rareley find any use for, there is also another chord in there. It is build upon the bVIm. So in the key of A harmonic minor, there is an Fm chord as well as an FM chord.

[Force]

Alez/LosBoleros .. When I created that chart some years ago I didn't really understand it. I was just collating everything useful I found on the web for offline reference. I was obviously confused about the meaning of a dim (diminished triad) versus a m7b5 (a four note chord - is that a tetrad?) on the seventh degree.

[alez]

> Dim is a proper term for the triad as all the examples are triads. The actual name on the top, viim7b5 is also correct.

 

Oops! Absolutely right, thanks for noting!

 

 

Absolutely! Never thought about that, very interesting indeed (if a bit weird? ).

 

So if you would choose a minor harmony other than minor harmonic, what would you use to build chords upon? Maybe just naural minor but changing the V chord only from minor to major so it works as a dominant? Or maybe a harmonized melodic (ascending) scale?

 

Cheers,

 

Alex

[LosBoleros]

 

Originally posted by alez [b So if you would choose a minor harmony other than minor harmonic, what would you use to build chords upon? Maybe just naural minor but changing the V chord only from minor to major so it works as a dominant? Or maybe a harmonized melodic (ascending) scale? Cheers, Alex

Most music harmonises the natural major or minor scale. Sometimes when somethings sounds unusual, the tonal center might be something other than Ionian or Aeolian. Many times in music, we need a strong cadence to give the part a feeling of finality. This is when we begin to substitute chords with dominant chords.

 

In the key of Am, it is common to substitute the Em chord with E7 for cadence. There are many other places to substitute a chord with a dominant chord to create a secondary Dominant. During these chord alterations, the harmonic minor scale can be used to sing during the changes. When the progression goes back to being diatonic, natural minor scales come back into the picture.

 

Yes it is possibble to use harmonic minor in situations other than over the dominant chord. It can be used over the i chord to provide a leading tone back into the i. Example, using A harmonic minor to provide a leading tone, (G#) into the Am chord. Also too, there is that Fm chord in the key of A harmonic minor.

 

For the most part, progressions that use harmonic minor tend to use Dominant chords. Rarely will you see the use of the Caug in the key of A minor. A more common use of the aug chord would be Gaug leading to CM. Other than the Dominant chords that are strategically placed for cadence or to re-tonicise another chord, Most of the other chords will tend tofollow the natural scales.

 

For the key of A minor, the harmonised chords are,

 

Am7, Bm7b5, CM7, Dm7, Em7, FM7, G7

 

You can replace any of these chords with a Dom7th chord and follow it with a natural chord a fourth up. Such as, replace the Am7 with A7 and follow it with Dm. Or replace the Bm7b5 with B7 and follow it with E7.