How to solo?

gennation · February 23, 2007

I would agree that he probably keeps new, learning, people away too.

Why to have to be like that r|d???

You're here practically everyday like we are. I hang at GJ daily too, it's a little edgier there...have you tried that forum? There's still a lot of good stuff there, but it's looser.

We need a sticky that says...Sticky: to the new folks, don't let r|d chase you away from here.

Maybe you need to understand that this is a place that people who DON'T the answers come to to learn the answers, or concepts, or personal experiences of others. And, in turn we ALL learn some thing constantly here.

Sure this is a public forum, but you been here a long time, do you understand what this forum is primarily for?

Ara Ajizian · February 23, 2007

Well the way I feel is that if there's one forum on here where people should be courteous, it's the lesson area. It's hard enough learning guitar without someone putting you down for what you don't know.

mhoward · February 23, 2007

A D E is a blues progression. If you were to make those chords 7th chords, which I suggest, you can play pentatonics over it along with the blues scale off the root of each chord. But be aware that when you say pentatonic there is major and minor. Know which one you are talking about and playing. Forget about modes.

>

So I would suggest making all those chords 7th chords. So now you have A7 D7 and E7 - all of which come from different keys. But it's a blues. That's what it is. Now you can start your search for what you can play over Dom7 chords. There is a tone of stuff. A major scale will not work. Start off with the A blues scale. Keep it simple and have fun.

This seems like good advice, but I've been wondering about this. If you change the scale with the chords, then you end up playing notes in the IV and V scales that are not part of the I scale. I attached an illustration, comparing the I, IV, and V minor pentatonic scales. Note that I've lined up the root of the IV scale with the 4 of the I scale, and the root of the V scale with the 5 of the I scale. If I did this correctly, it looks to me like the IV scale contains a b3 that isn't in the I, and the V scale's 5 is not in the I scale. The blues scale only adds a b5 which neither the IV or the V share with the I. If you play major pentatonic scale, there is no conflict between the I and IV, but still the 3 in the V scale is not in the I.

Of course if you play modally, there are no conflicts because all the notes are out of the root scale.

I'm still working through Mike Dodge's advanced pentatonic lessons that were mentioned earlier in this thread, talking about a "super-imposed" scale that includes all the pentatonics, only leaving out the b2, b6 and 7, and that does really free one up to combine scales, but even with that scale there are notes in the IV and V that are not in the key.

Sorry for getting all wrapped around the theory -- I'm not trying to get snooty... I'm just trying to make sense of it (I'm an engineer ).

Virgman · February 24, 2007

I am trying to get better at soloing and need some help. If I were playing a simple A D E progression, would I just use A scales throughout, or would I use A scales while on the A chord, D scales over the D chord, and E scales over the E chord? What is the most common method? thanks in advance.

You can tie yourself up in knots by overthinking this.

Go to any position in the scale and play by ear using the scale notes.

Don't play the scale in order but use your ear. Jam over your progression for awhile until you get the feel. Listen for the chord changes and play a good sounding note.

Feel is important.

Jed · February 24, 2007

This seems like good advice, but I've been wondering about this.

If you must think in terms of some all encompassing scale then it's much better to start with the chord tones from the I chord first, to that you can add chord tones from the other chords. (as you have done)

But in real life the notes that will sound most consonant are chord tones, then the chord extensions and lastly the passing tones (not consonant at all) that connect the previous notes into some standard / common scale.

No matter what you do, the only notes that will sound consonant over any chord are it's chord tones and it's extensions. Scales are really NOT part of soloing, their just a conventient way to discuss groups of notes. There is no universal scale that will sound great over all of the chords in any particular song. For instance if you look at the major pentatonics (or complate major scales) for I, IV, V in the key of C, the only notes that are consonant across all chords are D, G and A. Three notes makes a pretty {censored}ty scale.

cheers,

ps edit - Of course consonance isn't everything and in blues it can be really boring.

Jed · February 24, 2007

Combine the chord tones from each chord (I7, IV7 & V7) and the blues notes for each chord and there are multiple functions for each note in the chromatic scale depending on the underlying chord.

C - is the root of C7 and the 5 of F7
Db - is the b5 of G7
D - is the 9/2 of C7, the 13/6 of F7 and the 5 of G7
Eb - is the b3 of C7 and the b7 of F7
E - is the 3 of C7 and the 13/6 of G7
F - is the root of F7 and the b7 of G7
Gb - is the b5 of C7
G - is the 5 of C7, the 9/2 of F7 and the root of G7
Ab - is the b3 of F7
A - is the 13/6 of C7, the 3 of F7 and the 9/2 of G7
Bb - is the b7 of C7 and the b3 of G7
B - is the b5 of F7 and the 3 of G7

If you add up just the chord tones from C7, F7 & G7 - you come to within three notes (Db, Gb & Ab) of the chromatic scale.

C D Eb E F G A Bb B

Of course, none of this means anything. It's all just mental masturbation. Start with chord tones, add extensions then learn to play what you hear in your head. Theory is a way to organize your thoughts, it's not about rules that can never be broken and it sure as hell isn't about the blues.

cheers,

Neilsonite · February 25, 2007

I basically agree with JedL...

I believe that thinking from a chordal point of view (chord tones, extensions, passing notes) is really useful, and much simpler than some suggest. IMHO, to make a single scale sound good over a whole chord progression is much more difficult for someone starting out, although it's possible for those with a great ear. Of course, those who do make it sound good are managing to focus on chord tones by ear anyway...

r|d - The majority of people here seem to think that this forum is about sharing and receiving information, not bullying, belittling or insulting those who want to take part. Please don't ruin it for everyone - maybe try another forum with a less friendly or helpful atmosphere?

ilovemystrat · February 25, 2007

after learning some scales, soloing came naturally

mhoward · February 25, 2007

... if you look at the major pentatonics (or complate major scales) for I, IV, V in the key of C, the only notes that are consonant across all chords are D, G and A. Three notes makes a pretty {censored}ty scale.

No, I understand that the key of the tune is so dominant that any note in the I scale can be played over any chord in the song. I thought Jawbreakerr was talking about that (i.e., playing modes off the key scale). My question was more whether, when you change scales to match the chords of the chord progression, like I think Red|Dragon was advocating, it makes sense to play notes that are not part of the root scale. In your first post I think you were arguing that just about every note in the chromatic scale plays some role in at least one of the scales in a chord progression, but if a note is not contained in the root scale, won't it sound weak or dischordant?

I'm sure you're right about not getting compulsive about following the rules. Was it Jerry Garcia who said that after a while, you can play any note and make it fit? Certainly music that has some dischordant elements can be more interesting, as you say. But I think I need to understand the rules well before I break them. "Playing scales is like a boxer skipping rope or punching a bag. It's not the thing in itself; it's preparatory to the activity" - Barney Kessel

Neilsonite · February 25, 2007

mhoward - yep, chord tones are the notes of the chord (for a dominant 7th chord, it's the 1-3-5-b7), and extensions are the in-between notes (2-4-6). Extensions can be altered (i.e. b2, #4, b6), and passing notes can be used, so anything from the chromatic scale can sound good, so long as you focus on chord tones (particularly the 1-3-5).

Using non-scale notes as extensions/passing notes depends on the chord progression, and the basic idea is to use your ear... In any case, over non-diatonic chord progressions (like in blues, jazz, funk, lots of rock), keeping diatonic wouldn't make sense, so just follow the chords and use the extensions that sound good to you.

In regards to wanting to first understanding the rules then later break them, I disagree slightly. Basically, IMO there are no musical rules, only possible choices. For example, a 'scale' is just a collection of notes, and an integral point of music theory is that you can choose to use the notes of the scale exclusively or introduce new ones. Using non-scale notes is not breaking the rules, since there is no rule saying you can't. Granted some forms have strict ideas about which choices are permissible within the style, but we're not really talking about counterpoint or anything like that.

Fuzzboy · February 25, 2007

Find a couple nice scale/chord type books. Go through them slowly. Once you get a couple general concepts down start recording some of those I IV V's and jam over them. When that starts to feel good pull the books out and go through them a bit more. Your on your way!

gennation · February 25, 2007

The thing about the Blues/I-IV-V progressions is many of the extended voicings are based off Dominant, or 7th chords. One 7th chord opens up a can of worms of 12 notes. Now when you have a progression that contains all 7th chords...you pretty much have note saturation very quickly.

Over Dominant chords, and the subs they entice, you have anywhere from the basic "can't go wrong" chords tones all the way to Whole Tone and the Diminished scales...BUTTTTT, there's a A LOT of other stuff in between the basics and the extreme.

By continuing to read the Advanced Pentatonic Tutorial at my site you'll find that I/you end up with a Chromatic scale. But, it's developed from two VERY simple scales that most guitarist start with, get bored or uninspired with, then think they need to learn something OTHER than these couple of scales...there's no need to learn something else and forget about what you all ready know. There's a LOT of music in those little scales.

The very first thing is how most scales guitarists start with don't "speak directly to the chords", so I show how that ties in...the missing chord tones, then from there there's examples to further burn that in the brain...but then I start showing you everything you have with this concepts and how it can be used regardless of the style of music you play.

Then since I'm mainly dealing with Dominant/7th chords through out I show how you "follow the chord" to state the changes through your playing, melody, solo's.

It ends up giving you every note, and being able to comprehend them "per" chord.

The lesson is designed to help a player who's been playing for a while but is still wondering How/Why/When, and trying to add more MUSIC to their playing after they get burned out on playing scales up and down.

mhoward · February 25, 2007

You are so right Mike. I hit your lesson 12 on the F# in "In the Mood" on about 1/2 hour ago, and am just studying the Albert Lee solo on lesson 13. This really brings home the advice by Nielsonite and JedL and others about passing notes and extensions. It takes me a lot of time to work through those lessons, figuring out where the degrees of the scale are, but I feel that the more I wrestle with it the more it's sinking in. I'm finding it really useful to think in terms of this super-imposed combination of Major/Minor Pentatonic, Blues, Dorian and Mixolydian. So there are only 3 notes left out: the b2, b6, and M7. But then you show that even they can be tossed in.

It's amazing to be able to get this kind of advice - thanks again to everyone for taking the trouble to reply. I give special credit to Mike because he must have spent a lot of time making these online lessons.

gennation · February 25, 2007

You are so right Mike. I hit your lesson 12 on the F# in "In the Mood" on about 1/2 hour ago, and am just studying the Albert Lee solo on lesson 13. This really brings home the advice by Nielsonite and JedL and others about passing notes and extensions. It takes me a lot of time to work through those lessons, figuring out where the degrees of the scale are, but I feel that the more I wrestle with it the more it's sinking in. I'm finding it really useful to think in terms of this super-imposed combination of Major/Minor Pentatonic, Blues, Dorian and Mixolydian. So there are only 3 notes left out: the b2, b6, and M7. But then you show that even they can be tossed in.

It's amazing to be able to get this kind of advice - thanks again to everyone for taking the trouble to reply. I give special credit to Mike because he must have spent a lot of time making these online lessons.

Thanks mhoward!

The stuff in those lessons isn't "everything", but it does cover a lot of ground.

I developed that way of thinking of things while still playing pro. I was going from Rock gigs to country, to jazz, to blues, bluesgrass...you name and it was part of how I made money.

It all boiled down to me thinking that there must be some way all this stuff is glued together. The thing about the common scales guitarists know as opposed to the chords they play over is what started the avalanche for me. It was one "concept" I could use on just about any gig I picked up, and have my playing fit the style...or at least give me some more options of getting closer to the styles.

That thinking does not replace straight up Music Theory, as for me, without that kind of fundamental background I would've never developed this way of piecing things together.

I'm glad you're getting something out of them. I would teach those kinds of things to my advanced students years ago. It's nice way of flattening the playing field and encompassing a lot of different sounds at the same time.

Jed · February 26, 2007

What are the chord tones, and what are extensions? Would chord tones be the 4 notes that make up the 7th chord, and would the extensions then be the other notes in the scale?

Extensions are specific to the chord type / function. Available chord extensions are diatonic to the key in most styles of music. Diatonic notes that fall outside the definition of available entensions are called avoid notes (in reference to a chord or chord scale) or passing tones (in reference to a scale).

Extensions are chords tones higher than the 7th of the root. For instance any major 7th chord can have a 9th and or a 13th as an available extension. And if the maj7 chord in question is function as the IVmaj7 chord of the key then you can also have a #11 extension.

Minor 7th chords can have 9ths, 11th and/or 13ths - IF those notes are diatonic to the key.

Min7b5 chords generally have no extensions (although the 11th extension is technically possible)

Gmaj7 - G B D F# (available extensions: 9th = A, 13 = E), (the #11 (C#) is not available because it's not diatonic to G major) - so a Gmaj7 chord in the key of G could be played as a Gmaj9 add 13 - and uses 6 of the 7 notes in the G major scale.

Amin7 - A C E G (available extensions: 9th = B, 11 = D, 13 - F#)

Bmin7 - B D F# A (available extensions: 11th = E) - the 9th (C#) isn't available because it's not diatonic to G major. Likewise the 13th (G#) is not available / diatonic to G major.

Cmaj7 - C E G B (available extensions: 9th = D, #11 = F#, 13 = A) - so a Cmaj7th chord in the key of G could be played as a Cmaj13 (#11) - and uses every note in the G major scale. Note that this case (the IVmaj7 chord) is the only diatonic chord that allows use of every note in the parent major scale.

D7 - D F# A C (available extensions: 9th = E, 13th = B) - the 11th (G) is not available because it interferes with the major 3rd (F#).

Emin7 - E G B D (available extensions: 9th - F#, 11th = A) - the 13th (C#) isn't available because it's not diatonic to G major.

F#min7b5 - F# A C E (available extensions: 11th = B) - a 9th (G#) isn't available because it's not diatonic to G major. Likewise a 13th (D#) is not available / diatonic to G major.

No, I understand that the key of the tune is so dominant that any note in the I scale can be played over any chord in the song.

That statement is absolutely incorrect. There are people that will make this claim and in fact it can be true under some very special circumstances but as a general case it is false. Read this twice: "THAT STATEMENT IS INCORRECT"

But I think I need to understand the rules well before I break them. "Playing scales is like a boxer skipping rope or punching a bag. It's not the thing in itself; it's preparatory to the activity" - Barney Kessel

Study / memorize the major scale in a few closely related keys, learn how to harmonize them, learn about functional harmony / memorize the diatonic chords, memorize the chord spellings, then you'll be able to understand chord scales which is ultimately what you are looking for.

Lastly, find someone to work with / study with in a one-on-one setting. While there are some people on the 'net that really do understand harmonic theory, they are a small minority of the people that post regularly. Imagine trying to learn a new language by walking into a crowd, loudly asking for help learning the language and finding 30 people all trying to teach you at the same time. I just doesn't work that way.

cheers,

Jed · February 26, 2007

In regards to wanting to first understanding the rules then later break them, I disagree slightly. Basically, IMO there are no musical rules, only possible choices. For example, a 'scale' is just a collection of notes, and an integral point of music theory is that you can choose to use the notes of the scale exclusively or introduce new ones. Using non-scale notes is not breaking the rules, since there is no rule saying you can't. Granted some forms have strict ideas about which choices are permissible within the style, but we're not really talking about counterpoint or anything like that.

I understand your point and disagree very strongly.

Using your example, a "major scale" is just a collection of notes, but it's a very special collection of notes encompassing an organization of intervals that supports / defines 99% of popular western music. The major scale is a rigidly defined construct, defined by a set of rules.

We are of course free to "invent" anything we want but that doesn't mean our inventions will have any merit beyond the fact that we created them. We can add chromatic passing tones to any scale we like but that doesn't make them part of some "new scale".

There are rules about chord construction, rules about available extensions, rules about effective cadences, rules about modulations, chord borrowing, etc, etc. Feel free to replace the word "rules" with "strong suggestions for" if you are authority-phobic but in practice they are the same thing.

Relative to gaining an understanding of harmonic theory there are rules, not many, but what few there are are very powerful and far reaching. Important rules that would be foolish to try and deny. There is a clear distinction between those people that don't know there are rules vs those craftsman that know the rules and follow the rules as if they were laws vs those musicians that know the rules so well that they know myriad ways to work around the rules.

This last group are so knowledgeable that they can trick people into thinking they are breaking the rules, when in fact they are just exploiting exceptions to the rules.

Keep in mind there are many different ways to know the rules. Some people know the rules as formal rules, like the academics that can recite rule after rule as if ready from a text book. There are others that can't explain the rules in textbook form and in fact may not know them as rules per se but know how to play "inside" versus "outside" consistently in a very musical way and in doing so are using the rules in a practical sense.

At some point in every musician's development they start to question the rules. This is a good thing and should be encouraged. Everyone should be free to form their own beliefs and understanding relative to music and how it works. But to say there are no rules is misleading at best and harmful at worst. Consider the level of understanding that the OP has for harmony. He wants / needs to understand the rules. He's got plenty of time to learn when and how to break them.

respectfully,

Neilsonite · February 26, 2007

Hi JedL,

I also understand your point, and just to show I'm not authority-phobic, I strongly disagree that I'm being misleading or harmful. Anyway, I think this is all just a problem of semantics regarding the word 'rule'.

I'm arguing that using a major scale to construct the harmony and melody of a song is not following a 'rule', but an 'approach', one which happens to be particularly important. It's clearly frequently used, essential knowledge. When Mozart introduces an accidental, he is not 'breaking a rule', he is choosing to make use of another approach. I am not saying that people shouldn't understand the major scale or the harmony it produces (of course they should, it's essential!), I am saying that it is not a 'rule' in the traditional use of the word describing what is possible or allowable. You cannot for example break the rules of chess and hope to get away with it. This is clearly not the same type of 'rule' that Mozart understood.

IMHO the use of the word 'rule' can result in the type of rigid thinking that prevents one from exploring different possibilities. For example, in your last post you argue that the 11 shouldn't be used over the V7 because it interferes with the 3. I completely disagree that it shouldn't be used, as I really like the tension both melodically and harmonically. Now I agree that the 4 (11) sounds pretty poor over a maj7 chord, but I choose to avoid it because I don't like the sound, not because it would be breaking yet another 'rule'.

So, to paraphrase you, I would say that there is a lot to learn about chord construction, choosing extensions, composing cadences, modulations, chord borrowing, etc, etc. It is clearly really valuable to understand what is typically used, and what works well. I think it is very important that music textbooks describe for example different types of modulation, and explain why it sounds smoothest if modulating to a closely related key like the dominant or subdominant (etc etc etc). Please provide any counter-examples, but I've never seen one present this information as an authoritative list of the 'rules' of modulation, but as a description of different possible approaches. I'm not talking here about adhering to the idiomatic choices typical of specific genres or forms, but I don't think you or the OP are either.

In any case, the thread has been focusing on blues, and the exclusive use of a major scale is clearly not the typical approach used in this style. In this case, it's essential to understand that all those in-between bits of the major scale are treasure-troves of good music too, and that there's no 'rule' saying you can't use them if it sounds good to you.

Jed · February 26, 2007

Neilsonite,

I sent a response back channel since we drifting well off topic (well at least I was in my responses to you).

Mostly we agree on more than we disagree on. I tend to favor a slightly more structured approach to harmonic theory but ultimately our differences are minor variations on a theme.

cheers

mhoward · February 26, 2007

Thanks, JedL.

Lastly, find someone to work with / study with in a one-on-one setting. ...

I've only had a couple of teachers. My first was about 6 or 7 years ago and he was teaching fingerstyle, but that just meant helping me play some songs from tab. So I figured I could practice on my own. A year or two ago I found a new teacher and really stressed that I wanted to learn how to improvise, and he did show me some scales and gave me a Berklee book on music theory. But still he didn't seem to have a lesson plan -- he was willing to help me with anything I wanted to study, but I didn't know what to do... he just wanted to teach me songs. So I discovered Fretboard Logic, and then Scales Over Chords, and I've been studying them on my own. Then I discovered video lessons on TrueFire, and have been working on their Bluesology series. And now I've been able to fill in some gaps with lessons by Mike Dodge and others. I do get stuck on some points and it's been great to get some advice from you guys. But I've learned more about music theory since quitting lessons than I ever did with a teacher.

Jed · February 26, 2007

I thought you could always play over the "key" scale throughout the song, as long as you emphasize the notes of whatever chord you are in.

Firstly, it's rare that a modern song stays in any one key and as the key changes so to do the scales. But what you said originally was This statement is only true if you define "playing any note" as using any note as a passing tone in the setting of a strictly diatonic progression. Each chord has a unique set of chord tones / extensions / avoid notes. Avoid notes are, well . . to be avoided as melody notes over a particular chord. They can be used in passing but sound "wrong" if lingered upon or approached without special care.

Blues and jazz can be difficult styles to use to learn theory. Ultimately you'll end up there but there are easier places to start.

You are on the right track with your studies. My comment about the 'net being a mixed blessing is just that. For some people it works but for many that I've seen the multitude of divergent views on the net just muddy up the works and slow learning about theory. No doubt there are some good books but nothing would be better than than working with a pro teacher on theory specifically. Someone that can guide you through the differences between various approaches, general sets of "rules" or "guidelines", design specific musical examples to address you questions / needs and basically mentor to your specific needs toward understanding music theory.

cheers,

SunRaFan · February 26, 2007