Stuck in scales-help needed!

[piper19]

So guys, I finally made some progress on learning scales, but I cannot understand WHEN to use WHICH one.

-I learned 5 positions of the major scale

-Moving further into 5 positions of minor scale

-Then learning 5 positions of the minor pentatonic scale and from that major pentatonic.

 

Now i want to jam a bit to get these into my memory, but as said, I don't know which scale to use over which chords. One thing I can tell, I use the minor pentatonic a lot as it sounds best in most cases.

 

I have this book from Gary Turner which states the following:

1/minor key : use minor pentatonic scale, position 1 starting on sixth string root note

2/major key with major and 7 chords : same

3/major key with major, minor and maj7 and min7 chords : major pentatonic scale.

 

Can anyone explain this further? It seems that this makes it very easy to apply once you understand it.

 

For example, what can I use over A-G-D-A-C-A progression?

I would say both 2/ and 3/ are applicable?

[frankiej]

im no expert but you can use any of the scales. Like when i solo in g or whatever i throw in some modes but i play some penatonic riffs too.

like say in g you can play g major scale and all the modial positions. You can play the relative minor which would be E. You can also play E penatonics since its just the relative minor with some notes stripped off of it.

when i first learned scales all i did was followed the scales. Now what ive learned is you have to accent the chords your playing. So if your play a G chord you want to make up riffs or melodies that revovle around G, B, D (traids).

once again im not an expert when it comes to this stuff and am certainly not the best at explaining but im pretty sure i hit the base of your question.

Edit: i also like the way the penatonics and modes play on eachother. My teacher told me this "The penatonics are the bones and modes are the flesh" or something along that, i still dont quite understand it but im getting towards it.

[Jed]

To learn how scales relate to chords, chord progressions and keys, you should study up on how chords are generated via harmonized scales. Pay attention to the specific scale degrees and how they function as chord tones in the various scales.

It's the duality of how notes function as scale degrees of the key and chord tones of various chords in the chord progression that will help you see how all of these things relate - and hence how to use various scales over certain chords or alternatively various chords over certain scales / keys.

cheers and good luck,

[Virgman]

This gets pretty complicated really quickly and as Jed said, knowing some theory helps out.

 

Here's a simple, practical way to get you up and running.

 

Take the key of C.

 

The chords in the key are:

 

C - Dm - Em - F - G7 - Am - Bdim

 

Pop, rock, and country songs mainly stay in one key so that makes it easier.

 

If the chord progression is a 1-4-5 like C-F-G (key of C) then you could improvise in the key of C. C is the first chord in the progression so you could certainly play your pattern that begins with the C note.

 

You could also play your pattern that begins with A which is the natural minor based off the 6th note in the key. This is because the C chord and the Am chord are substitutes for one another. They harmonize nicely.

 

We are quite used to hearing the A minor pentatonic pattern in pop and rock music (Jimmy Page, etc.) This is the pattern at the A note minus the F and B .

 

What about a song like Em-G-C?

 

This song is most likely in the key of G.

 

Chords of G are

 

G-Am-Bm-C-D7-Em-F#dim

 

Em is the natural minor of key of G.

 

Play Em pent or try your E pattern of the major scale.

 

Most likely you will find the Em pent to your liking.

 

Try key of C but start on the E note. How does that sound? There is a minor pentatonic at E in the key of C isn't there? Do you like it?

 

You will find that 9 times out of ten you will use the pentatonic pattern in a pop song. You can throw in the remaining two major scale notes if you like.

 

Experiment.

 

Blues songs use the blues scale generally. For an A blues song (A7-D7-E7) use your A minor pentatonic pattern and throw in the blue note (b5 or Eb).

 

String your patterns together and play up and down the fretboard.

 

Jam over progressions.

 

Don't play your scales up and down like a monkey. Vary the notes. Mix the notes up. Make it sound good. Add some space, slides, bends, vibrato, jump strings, etc.

 

If you get into jazz it gets more complicated.

[JazzyShredder]

Actually, the basic idea is, you play over the intervals of a chord. Say you have G maj7, whose intervals are 1 3 5 7. You can always play the G Ionian (aka G major) or G major pentatonic (same thing; it's just that pentatonic scales have two notes omitted from their diatonic couterparts) over that G maj7, because, if you haven't guessed already, major goes with major. However, just forget about the scales and think of this: any scale can sound right as long as it has the intervals/notes of the chord you're playing over. So that means you can play G Lydian, because G Lydian also has those intervals. And if you know some exotic modes like Lydian #2 or Ionian b6, then you even can play them over the chord.

[gennation]

 

For example, what can I use over A-G-D-A-C-A progression?

 

 

Please define this progression. I take it they are all Major chords? 4 beats per chord? Is this really a progression of just some chords you typed in. And if it is a progression, it sounds fine up to the C chord but you're missing something to really being it back to A at the end. Maybe something like:

 

||: A | G | D | A | C | A | C | A :||

 

Many people get caught up in scales and theories without just looking at what's right in front of them. Let look at your chords as power chords (Root and 5th):

 

A = A + E

G = G + D

D = D + A

C = C + G

 

Weeding them out you have: A C D E G

 

That's an A Minor Pentatonic scale. There's your scale!

 

Not after you do some more soul searching you might fine that some of those chords are major or minor. Just use the same idea except with a 3 note chord.

 

You might fine this: ||: Am | G | D | Am | C | Am | C | Am :|| (kind of like Mary Jane's Last Dance)

 

Let's look at the triads for each chord:

 

Am = A C E

G = G B D

D = D F# A

C = C E G

 

Weeding them out you get: A B C D E F# G

 

That's an A Dorian scale. There's your scale.

 

Also, the A Minor Pent we found with the power chord notes is embedded in the A Dorian scale, so what we found early is STILL usable too.

 

In music, sometimes you have to look at what you DO KNOW and not spend so much time on what you don't know.

[piper19]

Thanks for the replies so far. Most of the theory I'm getting now, still not 100% clear, but I will get it.
Thing is, I still don't understand what Mr Gary Turner wants to say with his 3 statements in his book. I want to use these statements without thinking during jamming. E.g. our rhythm guitar plays some chords, and I know instantly what scale to use, without first getting into all the theory behind the chords to know the scale.

My basic idea for now is (and it works 90% of the time), if the chords start with a minor (eg Am), I use A minor pentatonic or just A minor, if they start at eg C, I use C minor pentatonic or C minor. If I see some chords like CMAJ, DMAJ, I use the major scale. But there must be more options available than that. Also, I'm using a program "guitar scales method", which hammers most of the time on learning the major scale. But I don't find any use for this scale, only minor I use...Then why is that major scale so important?

[frankiej]

why is the major scale important?
thats where all the other scales came from, thats why its important.

[piper19]

I know, but it's also the only scale I cannot find a use for during jamming

[frankiej]

why not?

say like a very easy progress I-IV-V
all of them are major.

Say key of A, Itd be I=Amaj, IV=Dmaj, V=Edom then repeat progression but end on I.

You can also change all these chords to maj7th, 9ths, 13ths.
Over all this you can play the A major scale and modes if you know them.

[Dubb]

My basic idea for now is (and it works 90% of the time), if the chords start with a minor (eg Am), I use A minor pentatonic or just A minor, if they start at eg C, I use C minor pentatonic or C minor. If I see some chords like CMAJ, DMAJ, I use the major scale. But there must be more options available than that. Also, I'm using a program "guitar scales method", which hammers most of the time on learning the major scale. But I don't find any use for this scale, only minor I use...Then why is that major scale so important?

It depends on the context. For example, if you're having a funk-rock jam then the major scale is probably not a good choice because that style tends to stay in minor keys. But if you're playing country, folk, pop, etc, major keys are much more popular than minor. Other styles like reggae can be more half and half. It's important to be comfortable with the major scale because it is, in fact, very widely used, and once you get more comfortable with it you'll find it's actually pretty easy to "find uses" for it.

[piper19]

ok! I figured it out today!!
So, A minor or C major or D dorian would be 3 different names for the same scale and if you look at them on the guitar neck, you see exact the same dots, is this right?
But you revolve around different notes depending on major or minor.

Now let's take an example to check I am getting it...
My basic song chorus starts with the chords F-C-G
that looks to me like C major or A minor, which is the same dots on the neck. So I play A minor scale in this case, right?

Then, the songs verse continues with the chords Bb-F, on which the A minor scale doesn't sound nice. But the chords are contained in Bb major or G minor.
So I play the G minor scale on this?

My question, is this the way I can do it (change from A minor to G minor during soloing), or is there ONE scale that fits all chords (F-C-G-Bb)

[piper19]

edit: I found that using the G minor scale during all chords sounds fine, why is that?

[Ericjake]

Your F C G progression is actually well known C F G (I IV V) and Cmaj scale or any mode of that scale share exactly the same notes. Amin is aelian mode of Cmaj so it works fine. Amin Pentatonic will do as well.

 

If we add Bb and F chords, we have new notes out of Cmaj scale, let see:

 

C chord has C E G notes

F chord has F A C notes

G chord has G B D notes

 

all of those notes belong to Cmaj scale

 

Bb chord has Bb Eb F notes so there are two notes out of scale

 

Gmin scale has G A Bb C D Eb F which covers added notes but not E and B

 

So you can play like this:

 

Chord Scale

C -------Cmaj or Amin

F -------Cmaj or Amin or Gmin

G -------Cmaj or Amin

Bb-------Gmin

 

In order to use the same scale over any progression, all chords in that progression should belong to a diatonic scale, for example Cmaj scale has the following chords C, dm, em, F, G, am, bdim

 

Going further, you don't have to allways use "in scale" notes, but generally those will be passing notes played in weak beats and could be any chromatism. This adds interest to your playing.