improvising and ear training question

[thetrooper9]

when im soloing over another guitarist its sometimes hard for me to hear what chords he is playing therefore making it hard for me to know what to play. how can i learn to be a better improvising soloist?

are those ear training programs good?

is it something i will learn in time?

or should i practice playing chords and learning what how they sound?

[BydoEmpire]

I can't really comment on any specific ear training program, though I would say generically "it can't hurt."

 

You'll definitely get better over time, don't worry about that. Try to pick out the root notes - don't worry about major/minor/dominant. Just try to get the root and play along as if you were playing a simple bass line. That will help you figure it out in a simpler way.

[halfwhole]

the guy who does te perfect pitch bull{censored} course has an EXCELLENT relative ear training course. it takes serious time and maintenance, but ear training is the best thing you can do for your music and playing IMO. if you want some free stuff, check out good-ear.com there is also a good iphone application that is fairly cheap. the goal is really not only to identify intervals and such, but also to be able to sing them given just the starting pitch.

[jonfinn]

Try this approach:

 

-If you can't hear the other guitarist clearly, turn down and play softer until you can.

 

-If you can figure out what chords are being played "on the fly", stop playing and ask.

 

-Practice playing the rhythm parts yourself until you can play them. Knowing them "in your head" isn't the same as "knowing them in your body."

 

-When you know that info, practice finding things that sound good over the chord progression.

 

-If you can't keep track of the chords that are being played (and where) while you're playing, it means you're thinking about your own soloing too much. Thought process should be 95% listening, 5% playing.

 

Easier said than done.

[heavy D]

Jon has some good points (as usual). One thing I'd like to point out is that when you have chords that are diatonic (as in, all in the same key) often there's really only one or two notes that will make them stand out for each other. For instance, take the chords:

 

Amin | Dmin | Amin | C |

 

So for Amin we have the notes A C E, and here's an Amin barre chord to help visualize:

 

1)5

2)5

3)5

4)7

5)7

6)5

 

Now, the next chord is Dmin, the notes are D F A, and here's the chord in the same position:

 

1)5

2)6

3)7

4)7

5)5

6)

 

If you compare these two chords you'll see that the difference between the two are the notes D and F. Now, you can play a D over Amin and it won't really stick out, but you really can't hang on an F over Amin- it doesn't sound that good. But hit that F over Dmin and it sounds right. You can imply the sound of Dmin by simply playing that one note.

 

Most chord progressions are like this, and while it takes time to learn these things it's well worth it. After you can hear these obvious, strong sounds it gets a lot easier to here the rest of the colors in the chord.

[adamgram]

gnu solfege is an excellent free ear training program

[Knottyhed]

 

or should i practice playing chords and learning what how they sound?

 

Well that's part of learning to play guitar, if you don't do that you won't improve you playing or your ear...

 

In my opinion half of being a good lead player is being a good rythm player.

 

I personally wouldn't get too bogged down in thinking about the theory as you play, if you get to the point where you can play what you hear in your head and can recognise the chord type you're playing over things will just happen naturally without you having to do 'maths'. That said, do learn the theory because it'll open your eyes to possibilities.

[thetrooper9]

I know my scales and lots of theory and i can usually play single note stuff thats in my head.

 

I think my biggest weakness is chords. hearing them, playing them, knowing progressions etc.

 

I have been working on learning songs by ear. I can usually figure out the singers melody easily but its still pretty hard for me to figure out the guitar chords.

 

I guess i need to learn songs with good chord progressions and rhythm

 

can anyone recommend some jazz type (not all open chords, i know them) songs to learn that will help me with this?

[AXEL276]

If you know scales and "lots of theory" like you say........it should be easy.

When I'm learning a song from the record all I need is to hear one note of the cord, any note. Then I use theory to build the chord around that one note based on the key the song is in. It's really very simple.

 

"I think my biggest weakness is chords. hearing them, playing them, knowing progressions etc."

Good, then you've answered your own question. Practice!

 

"is it something i will learn in time?

or should i practice playing chords and learning what how they sound?"

Again, you've answered your own question.

 

"can anyone recommend some jazz type (not all open chords, i know them) songs to learn that will help me with this?"

I took lots of guitar lessons when I was younger. Learning to play jazz is not that simple. Just like speaking, you can not communicate an idea until you have a vocabulary. Playing jazz (or any style of music) is the same but more so with jazz because there are no tricks, you can not make it sound better with volume or distortion. If you

[thetrooper9]

 

If you know scales and "lots of theory" like you say........it should be easy. When I'm learning a song from the record all I need is to hear one note of the cord, any note. Then I use theory to build the chord around that one note based on the key the song is in. It's really very simple.

 

 

ok I didnt think about trying to hear just one note of a chord like that. yeah I think i can do that

thanks

[AXEL276]

 

ok I didnt think about trying to hear just one note of a chord like that. yeah I think i can do that thanks

 

 

Keep in mind the voicing or inversion of the chord. The 1 note that you hear is important where that note is located in relation to the chord. Once you have identified the 1 note and constructed the chord you

[girevik]

can anyone recommend some jazz type (not all open chords, i know them) songs to learn that will help me with this?

 

I found the song-oriented approach was the way to go for me too, as far as studying jazz.

 

Man, I wish this book was out when I took jazz guitar and jazz improv classes in university. Hell, I'll probably still order my own copy:

 

http://www.shermusic.com/realezbook.htm

 

 

Compared to the regular Real Books, this one actually has guitar chord diagrams, suggested bass lines, suggested scales, etc.

 

If you don't have a means of recording yourself, get one ASAP. Then record yourself playing the bass line, chords, and melody line to each tune. I tried the Band In the Box and canned playalong audio route, and I found if I went through the trouble of recording my own parts, I learned a tune at a faster rate.

 

I found writing my own bass lines and recording them to be a very efficient learning exercise. It makes you identify the chord tones, work on your rhythm, and helps you find passing tones - all at the same time. Once you recorded the bass line I think you will find yourself freer to experiment with chord voicings on top of the bass, because you're not limited by playing the bass note. Also, when you play with a band, you'll be more used to playing chords with a real bass player.

 

An idea I got from a Berklee instructor who posts a lot on another forum is to try recording your accompaniment after you record your lead lines. He found it a great way to work on your comping skills and I agree.

 

If you really need audio to play along with, then this might be an alternative to consider:

 

 

I was considering this too, but the EZ Real Book comes with a LOT more songs for the money - I'd rather have more songs with no CD than less songs with a CD.

[thetrooper9]

the real ez book looks cool. i could record myself playing the different parts.

whats with the different versions C, Eb, Bb?

[girevik]

 

the real ez book looks cool. i could record myself playing the different parts. whats with the different versions C, Eb, Bb?

 

 

The Eb and Bb are for horn players because their "middle C" is Eb or Bb.

 

Guitarists are lucky in that we don't have to deal with transpositions like they do... except when we write parts for them....

[thetrooper9]

ok so it dosent matter which version for guitar

does that book mainly teach improvision? i think ive got a good handel on that i just need to learn comping (i guess its called)

[girevik]

 

ok so it dosent matter which version for guitar does that book mainly teach improvision? i think ive got a good handel on that i just need to learn comping (i guess its called)

 

 

It's a book of tunes that gives you some helpful hints on how to play each part, that's all. It's exactly what you're looking for, I think. Have a look at the sample page on the site.

 

You probably want the C version. I had a horn player explain to me how he has to transpose everything between Eb/Bb and C. My head hurt.

 

Just get the C version.

[thetrooper9]

ok i looked at the sample page i think i will pick that up

thanks for the recommendation

[t.k. gardner]

As a point of information, the Jamey Aebersold books/CD's (like the MAiden Voyage Cover above), are excellent tools to learn improv, comping, melody playing and time. They are all recorded with the drums centered stereo, but bass on one side and piano on the other, so you can isolate the piano and see how they comp, then try to play like that on your guitar, or you can turn off the piano and listen to the bass and drums and practice comping that way. Obviously you can solo over the tracks as well, and Aebersold has some very solid advice about what scales to use when soloing. It's maybe not for everyone, but many many people have benefitted from these products (including me). Plus there are over 100 different bokk/cd combinations available. Check it out.

[halfnote]

The best way to develop one's ear is simply through the effort of playing & listening.

 

My suggestion is a reductionist approach & one that may seem frustratingly slow but will be dependable if followed.

Forget harmony & scales; those will be defined automatically by whatever notes fit a situation.

Keep in mind that intellectual knowledge is gleaned more easily than it becomes ingrained. It's much easier to read something & understand it than it is to have it become part of our automatic responses.

Also realize that going slow when learning is sometimes faster!

 

There are lots of exercises one can explore to develop relative pitch & ear training but I think working with songs/tunes is really better. It helps, not just in memory, but to understand the why/how of musical effects in context.

Return to whatever music with which you are most familiar & find the simplest material you can. Listen to the tune 'til you know it well.

Then begin to play along.

Concentrate on the root notes & only those.

Next listen & learn to hear the 5ths.

Then the quality of the 3rd, major or minor.

After that, the 7ths & other color tones.

There's a reason that chords are built that way & your ear will develop more dependably if you follow that method.

 

As you develop, you'll be able to explore other music, whether jazz or anything else, better if you are able to hear those basic elements. That works for any type of music from European tradition to jazz to ragas.

 

Resist the temptation to hurry or to try to learn concepts or rules that may seem to help you advance faster.

Nothing will take you any faster than what you can actually hear & play off the cuff in any situation.

[Knottyhed]

 

I know my scales and lots of theory and i can usually play single note stuff thats in my head. I think my biggest weakness is chords. hearing them, playing them, knowing progressions etc. I have been working on learning songs by ear. I can usually figure out the singers melody easily but its still pretty hard for me to figure out the guitar chords. I guess i need to learn songs with good chord progressions and rhythm can anyone recommend some jazz type (not all open chords, i know them) songs to learn that will help me with this?

 

 

I'd get a 'Real' book of Jazz songs and a copy of Ted Greene's chord chemistry.

[girevik]

 

I'd get a 'Real' book of Jazz songs and a copy of Ted Greene's chord chemistry.

 

 

The EZ Real Book (as previously mentioned) includes suggested chord diagrams for guitar - for every single tune. 41 tunes!

[can't remember]

Resist the temptation to hurry or to try to learn concepts or rules that may seem to help you advance faster. Nothing will take you any faster than what you can actually hear & play off the cuff in any situation.

 

I agree. Actually playing over what you're hearing is best imho. If you can't hear what the other guitarist is playing than that is another issue.

 

To get better at improvising, I use a looper. I just loop the section that I need to solo over and just go. Be careful though, it can turn you into a real wanker

[Knottyhed]

 

The EZ Real Book (as previously mentioned) includes suggested chord diagrams for guitar - for every single tune. 41 tunes!

 

 

Chord Chemistry is a bit more in depth than that... the concepts in there can keep you busy for years.

[girevik]

 

Chord Chemistry is a bit more in depth than that... the concepts in there can keep you busy for years.

 

 

No doubt.

 

Anyway, he already made his choice - the EZ Real Book. And why not? It has over 40 real jazz tunes with chord charts, etc. and it's by the same publisher (Sher Music) that publishes the official Real Books. When he gets bored with the chords in the book, he can pick up a book like Chord Chemistry, or Mick Goodrick's Mr. Goodchord series, or the Van Eps book or...

 

His choice to go about learning tunes first, then adding more theoretical knowledge later is a very solid one, imo.