Non diatonic progressions?

[scooter]

Villiers Terrace

 

E C D

I've been up to Villiers Terrace

E C D

To see what's-a-happenin'

E C D

There's people rolling 'round on the carpet

E C D

Mixing up the medicine

E C D

I've been up to Villiers Terrace

E C D

I saw what's-a-happenin'

 

 

 

In this song, why does it work so well.?

 

I can't put it to any key that i know. so how do I analyse it etc.?

 

thanks.

[Virgman]

E and Em share two notes making them interchangeable (substitutes) in this case.

 

E = E, G#,B

 

Em = E, G, B

 

Em - C - D is key of G

 

Generally if two chords share two or more notes they can be substituted. However you may hear some dissonance but that's what makes it interesting.

 

Try soloing over it in Am or Bm or Em.

[SlaveNewWorld0]

The way I see it is a regular E minor key progression (i - VI - VII) with the minor tonic substituted with a major tonic. It's quite major/minor neutral.

 

In fact, they do play both E major and E minor variations in that song if I'm not mistaken.

[scooter]

So you could say they are changing the sixth minor into a major.?

[SlaveNewWorld0]

So you could say they are majoring the sixth minor into a major.?

 

 

That's one way of looking at it, yes.

[meganutt7]

I agree... It seems like all these progressions are derived from modal interchange... What happens is your playing E major over the E then turning it to E Aeolian over the C and D chords... So, essentially you are changing 3 notes... E major = E, F#, G#, A, B, C#, D#, E; E minor = E, F#, G, A, B, C, D, E.

[Poparad]

That is good example of switching between parallel major and minor keys (E major and E minor)

 

Here are the chords for both:

 

 

I    - E major ------- i   - E minor
ii   - F# minor ------ ii

[Poparad]

Em - C - D is key of G

 

 

Just because the G major scale contains the same notes as the E natural minor scale, doesn't make them equal. The progression above is in E minor, and not G major. A major requirement for something to be in a key is that a particular chord is emphasized as the tonic. That progression cannot be in the key of G since there is no G chord or emphasis on the note 'G' in any way. The presence of Em locks it into the key of E minor, and not G major.

 

Saying it's in G major is a bit of an over simplification, and actually is more confusing for an explanation because suddenly the 'G major' label comes out of nowhere and isn't immediately obvious as to having any sort of connection to the progression.

 

 

 

Try soloing over it in Am or Bm or Em.

 

 

While Am and Bm chords are in the key of Em, the A minor and B minor scales contain different notes and do not fit a progression that is in the key of E minor. When a progression is in a key, our ears expect to hear the same notes interacting together from chord to chord, with each chord simply being a momentary highlighting of specific notes from the key. Changing scales frequently disrupts this and usually just sounds like there are some wrong notes being included. Unless the harmony itself indicates a shift into a different scale or tonality, our ears hear things within a single key as often as possible.

[meganutt7]

Poparad,

The Bm could actually work over the E chord, as it would imply Mixolydian (if all you do is play the chord tones)... I like your breakdown of what can be called polymodality or polytonality, eventhough most often when they are called this it is due to their superimposition on top of one another, not "next" to each other.... Regardless, I think it is useful to try this concept with all manners of scales.. For instance , instead of E major and minor, try E Phrygian and Lydian, or then shift between two tonalities, like E major and Bb major, etc. etc. the options are limitless.. Also, trying to hear two of these tonalities over a PEDAL TONE is also pretty badass... Getting a static pedal going (open Low E, for instance) while you churn out triads over the top that weave between the two (or more) tonalities you selected...

[Poparad]

Poparad, The Bm could actually work over the E chord, as it would imply Mixolydian (if all you do is play the chord tones)...

 

 

 

A Bm chord would fit very well, yes, though Bm not as much. It's not a bad fit if used correctly, but it would only work if E mixolydian is the specific sound desired. If E major is instead what should be going on, it's not going to work quite as well. In the context of this progression, E - C - D, then treating E as an E7 sound does work well, but that's not always the case, and it is also different than treating it as an E major (Ionian) sound.

[Virgman]

Just because the G major scale contains the same notes as the E natural minor scale, doesn't make them equal. The progression above is in E minor, and not G major. A major requirement for something to be in a key is that a particular chord is emphasized as the tonic. That progression cannot be in the key of G since there is no G chord or emphasis on the note 'G' in any way. The presence of Em locks it into the key of E minor, and not G major. Saying it's in G major is a bit of an over simplification, and actually is more confusing for an explanation because suddenly the 'G major' label comes out of nowhere and isn't immediately obvious as to having any sort of connection to the progression. While Am and Bm chords are in the key of Em, the A minor and B minor scales contain different notes and do not fit a progression that is in the key of E minor. When a progression is in a key, our ears expect to hear the same notes interacting together from chord to chord, with each chord simply being a momentary highlighting of specific notes from the key. Changing scales frequently disrupts this and usually just sounds like there are some wrong notes being included. Unless the harmony itself indicates a shift into a different scale or tonality, our ears hear things within a single key as often as possible.

 

Sorry for any confusion about Em Natural Minor and Key of G.

 

Pop, you can runs rings around me in the theory department so if you say so it must be so.

 

Regarding the use of Am, Bm, or Em I said "try it". If you don't like how it sounds don't do it.

 

No matter what you have to accent the right chord tones over the particular chord.

 

[Poparad]

Regarding the use of Am, Bm, or Em I said "try it". If you don't like how it sounds don't do it.

 

 

Well, I can't argue with that.