C flat and other 'non-existent' notes?

[AlexMC]

So I know the chromatic scale includes the notes: A -A#-B-C-C#-D-D#-E-F-F#-G-G#

 

I.e. there's no B#/Cb, or E#/Fb

 

So when I'm playing, say, the scale of Gb (or Eb minor) on a keyboard, I have:

 

Gb-Ab-Bb-B-Db-Eb-F-Gb (or Eb-F-Gb-Ab-Bb-B-Db-Eb)

 

There is no mention of C in this scale, and there are both a Bb and B.

 

Does the B in this case 'play the role' of a flatted C, even though there is no such note as Cb?

 

Should this note be written and referred to as B or Cb? And how would this be shown in standard notation? As a C with a flat accidental, or as a B with a natural accidental?

[BydoEmpire]

It should be Cb. The note exists, it's just rarely needed. You'd also have a Cb in, say an F-7b5 chord.

[AlexMC]

I guess for a self-taught musician such as myself, there is possible confusion between the notes as written in the chromatic scale (which does not contain any notes *written as* Cb, E# etc, and specific notes found in certain scales or chords.

 

taking the white B key on a keyboard, for example - I've never heard anyone actually refer to this as the Cb key. It just 'acts as' a Cb in a certain context.

[soulmirror]

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but if you write these scales as F# major and I guess D# minor, then don't they work out correctly?

 

I believe this is the correct F# Major scale...

 

F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

 

Which is the same series of notes as the Gb major scale you listed, except you're back to having one of each letter.

 

Likewise, if you construct the D# natural minor key off this, it works similarly....

 

D# E# F# G# A# B C# D#

 

In other words, if you call them F# maj and D# min, then you don't have to have Cb's, or alternatively, you can call the Gb maj and Eb min and have Cb notes, or even more ugly, have the Bb and B be in-key at the same time. It's all semantics, though -- the notes are the same in any event.

[Jed]

 

I guess for a self-taught musician such as myself, there is possible confusion between the notes as written in the chromatic scale (which does not contain any notes *written as* Cb, E# etc, and specific notes found in certain scales or chords. taking the white B key on a keyboard, for example - I've never heard anyone actually refer to this as the Cb key. It just 'acts as' a Cb in a certain context.

 

 

The key here (pardon the pun) is: self-taught musician and the fact that you are defining the chromatic scale in terms of the piano. Both of these things project perspectives that are limited to some extent.

 

The nature of how and why we name notes in a scale a certain way is full of compromises and has been evolving over many centuries. We hear generally in terms of the major scale and it's modes in terms of seven notes before we perceive an octave. This is why our note labeling system has seven note names.

 

Most people hear music pitches in a relative way rather than an absolute way (freq specific). Listen to a C major scale. Now play a C# major scale and notice how your ear immediately recognizes the the major-ness of the scale irrespective of the tonic. It's doesn't matter if it's C major or C# major (or Db Major), your ear hears the major scale with a minor variation in the starting pitch. We have over the centuries used seven note names (or seven syllables for Solfege) to identify these seven major scale degrees.

 

Combining all the potential variations reveals a twelve notes set that can be repurposed to accomodate any major scale of any key using just those twelve notes. But since we hear from within a 7 note series (the major scale), the whole concept of seven note names has remained. So someone developed the concept of sharps and flats so that they could continue to use the seven note names with these alterations, in order to maintain the current seven note naming system.

 

Each major scale contains all seven letter names.

Each major scale can use either sharps or flats (but not both) to alter those names to get the correct sequence of intervals.

 

So Gb major = Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb

F# major = F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

 

Notice that GB major and F# major are enharmonic equivalents (use different names to define the same frequencies). So why do we have both keys? That's a harder question to address. Suffice to say that in some cases having a choice of names makes it easier to think about what the music is doing. Not everyone needs to know all the potential names, but for the jazzers and hard-core classical guys - there is a difference between F# major and Gb major.

 

cheers,

 

PS FWIW the chromatic scale with all enharmonic names =

B#/C - C#/Db - D - D#/Eb - E/Fb - E#/F - F#/Gb - G - G#/Ab - A - A#/Bb - B/Cb - B#/C

 

Also note that there exist things called "double sharps" and "double flats" - so there are many more names available for those situations where they might be required.

[AlexMC]

 

The key here (pardon the pun) is: self-taught musician and the fact that you are defining the chromatic scale in terms of the piano. Both of these things project perspectives that are limited to some extent. The nature of how and why we name notes in a scale a certain way is full of compromises and has been evolving over many centuries. We hear generally in terms of the major scale and it's modes in terms of seven notes before we perceive an octave. This is why our note labeling system has seven note names. Most people hear music pitches in a relative way rather than an absolute way (freq specific). Listen to a C major scale. Now play a C# major scale and notice how your ear immediately recognizes the the major-ness of the scale irrespective of the tonic. It's doesn't matter if it's C major or C# major (or Db Major), your ear hears the major scale with a minor variation in the starting pitch. We have over the centuries used seven note names (or seven syllables for Solfege) to identify these seven major scale degrees. Combining all the potential variations reveals a twelve notes set that can be repurposed to accomodate any major scale of any key using just those twelve notes. But since we hear from within a 7 note series (the major scale), the whole concept of seven note names has remained. So someone developed the concept of sharps and flats so that they could continue to use the seven note names with these alterations, in order to maintain the current seven note naming system. Each major scale contains all seven letter names. Each major scale can use either sharps or flats (but not both) to alter those names to get the correct sequence of intervals. So Gb major = Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb F# major = F# G# A# B C# D# E# F# Notice that GB major and F# major are enharmonic equivalents (use different names to define the same frequencies). So why do we have both keys? That's a harder question to address. Suffice to say that in some cases having a choice of names makes it easier to think about what the music is doing. Not everyone needs to know all the potential names, but for the jazzers and hard-core classical guys - there is a difference between F# major and Gb major. cheers, PS FWIW the chromatic scale with all enharmonic names = B#/C - C#/Db - D - D#/Eb - E/Fb - E#/F - F#/Gb - G - G#/Ab - A - A#/Bb - B/Cb - B#/C Also note that there exist things called "double sharps" and "double flats" - so there are many more names available for those situations where they might be required.

 

 

Great post, thank you.

 

I've always kinda wondered about certain conventions in musical notation. For example, the only major scale including only white keys is C, rather than A.... why is that?

 

And why we have sharps and flats, rather than 12 'equal' notes? Naturals, sharps and flats suggest a 'two tier' or 'uneven' system, whereas we divide the octave into 12 equal subdivisions. Why not letters A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L? Sure you'd still need to remember the intervals in each scale, but you WOULDN'T have to take the uneven distribution of accidentals into account (something I find really gets in the way when transcribing or building chords, for example)?

 

Likewise I've often read that 'western music is based off the major scale', i.e. all other scales are expressed in respect of the major format. That to me implies some sort of hierarchy where all other scales are somehow inferior to the major scale, whereas they are just another, equally valid way to navigate the 12 available notes.

 

Another oddity to me is the naming of the Dominant 7 chord. Major sevenths have a major third and a major seventh; minor sevenths have a minor third and a minor seventh, yet chords with a major third and a minor seventh are called... 'dominant'. What does dominant mean, anyway? The fifth note is the dominant... why?

 

The terms don't always lend themselves to easy memorising, you know?

[AlexMC]

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but if you write these scales as F# major and I guess D# minor, then don't they work out correctly? I believe this is the correct F# Major scale... F# G# A# B C# D# E# F# Which is the same series of notes as the Gb major scale you listed, except you're back to having one of each letter. Likewise, if you construct the D# natural minor key off this, it works similarly.... D# E# F# G# A# B C# D# In other words, if you call them F# maj and D# min, then you don't have to have Cb's, or alternatively, you can call the Gb maj and Eb min and have Cb notes, or even more ugly, have the Bb and B be in-key at the same time. It's all semantics, though -- the notes are the same in any event.

 

I was about to congratulate you on an elegant way of avoiding my concern re using Cb, or a Bb plus a B...

 

But then I noticed your E#, which is the same problem - I've always believed there was no such note, i.e. after E comes F! So you either flat the C or sharp the E....

[AlexMC]

Heh... from Wiki:

 

 

E? (E sharp) is a musical note. It is a chromatic semitone higher than E?. It is found in keys such as D-sharp minor and F-sharp major. This note is enharmonic to F, which may confuse beginners to music theory.

 

[Poparad]

 

Great post, thank you. I've always kinda wondered about certain conventions in musical notation. For example, the only major scale including only white keys is C, rather than A.... why is that?

 

 

When the modern system of keys and note names were conceived, music in minor keys was far more common than in major keys. Therefore, A minor was the starting point, and the notes were simple named "A B C D E F G," which leads to your next question:

 

 

And why we have sharps and flats, rather than 12 'equal' notes? Naturals, sharps and flats suggest a 'two tier' or 'uneven' system, whereas we divide the octave into 12 equal subdivisions. Why not letters A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L? Sure you'd still need to remember the intervals in each scale, but you WOULDN'T have to take the uneven distribution of accidentals into account (something I find really gets in the way when transcribing or building chords, for example)?

 

 

The reason we don't have 12 equal notes is because music wasn't, and for the most part still isn't, played that way. With the exception of 12-tone serial music found in 20th century classical music (by composers such as Schoenberg, Webern, and Berg), just about every other style is still based around chords, scales, and keys, to varying degrees.

 

Since music is based around scales, things are named in terms of the scales. As mentioned above, when the naming system first started to be used, minor keys were common, so they would simply call the first note 'A,' the second 'B,' and so on.

 

Later on, after this was fairly widely established, instruments were being built that could more easily play in multiple keys, or add chromatic notes to the scale. Not every note in the scale is the same amount apart, which is why E and F and why B and C are only half steps. To fill in the gaps, the extra notes were just called "Bb" (a lower B) or A# (higher than an A).

 

 

 

Likewise I've often read that 'western music is based off the major scale', i.e. all other scales are expressed in respect of the major format. That to me implies some sort of hierarchy where all other scales are somehow inferior to the major scale, whereas they are just another, equally valid way to navigate the 12 available notes.

 

 

Western harmony is based around the major scale, but the name of scales with letter names dates back earlier to modal music, where songs in minor modes were predominant. Major scale harmony, though, has since taken over and still reigns as king, but it's by no means 'superior' to anything else. It's just more widely used.

 

 

Another oddity to me is the naming of the Dominant 7 chord. Major sevenths have a major third and a major seventh; minor sevenths have a minor third and a minor seventh, yet chords with a major third and a minor seventh are called... 'dominant'. What does dominant mean, anyway? The fifth note is the dominant... why?

 

 

Each note of the scale has a name, with the 5th note being Dominant. Some other important ones are "Tonic" for the 1st, "Subdominant" for the 4th, and "Leading Tone" for the 7th.

 

7th chords built from the dominant scale degree were the first widely used type of 7th chord, so they were simply called "dominant 7ths" (simply meaning "a 7th chord built from the dominant degree").

 

Just like with the note names, it wasn't until later that the other kinds of 7th chords that can be created became commonly used. Eventually in the 20th century in jazz and other popular styles, short hand for the various chord types became necessary. Chords with major triads and major 7ths were simply "major 7," and chords with minor triads and minor 7ths were simply "minor 7." Dominant 7ths had been around for a couple hundred years, so there was no point in renaming them. In fact, most of these other chord types had been in common usage for over 100 years by this point anyway, but the naming system didn't exist yet.

 

Classical musicians do actually have different names for these, based upon the intervals that make up the chords, although when you get to a C13 chord, it ends up being very unwieldly: major-major-major-major13th chord (one each for the triad, 7th, 9th, and 13th). However, they use the names for analysis and not for real-time performance, where shorthand is much more essential, like in jazz and other pop styles.

[soulmirror]

I was about to congratulate you on an elegant way of avoiding my concern re using Cb, or a Bb plus a B...

 

Okay, I think this'll end up in "Modes are like Vietnam to internet guitarists" territory. I think I'll go with at this point that Western musical notation is like the Imperial / American system of units. It don't make no sense and yet it works so well that it stubbornly refuses to die.

[gennation]

This might help with any confusion, or surrender, http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/how-do-i-know-when-to-call-a-note-flat-or-sharp-t8.html

[GreenAsJade]

Hmmm - I thought the answer of "the key signature of Gb" was going to be that "C is flat in Gb major, simple as that".

 

IE I thought it was the case that in key signatures, and in representation of diatonic scales, you never use the same note name twice. (as in Bb-B).

 

Since there have been 10 posts so far and no-one said, this, I wonder if I've got the wrong idea here?

 

GaJ

[GreenAsJade]

A quick bit of googling reveals multiple sources that say Gb major has six flats,

 

Gb, Ab, Bb, Cb, Db and Eb

 

Which (doh) the first reply did say, afterall.

 

GaJ

[Cazual]

And why we have sharps and flats, rather than 12 'equal' notes? Naturals, sharps and flats suggest a 'two tier' or 'uneven' system, whereas we divide the octave into 12 equal subdivisions. Why not letters A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L?

 

You could rename the system but, for the reasons Poparad listed, you wouldn't gain much. In fact a rival system with more allegedly logical names does exist. Unfortunately I can never remember what it's called to provide a link. All I can recall is that it uses mathematical style symbols rather than the alphabet.

 

For a start, it would totally change the way you see the staff - which currently uses only 7 designated name/location matches. So the same line or space is used for F and F#, G and G# etc. because (with a bit of creative renaming when required) that's all you need.

 

This also serves as a way of seeing why you might want to call a C by the name B# - when the space on the staff is already being used for C#. It's neater and more compact to lay it out that way (and drop in the occasional # or b sign for 'accidentals' outside the key. To use a separate name and line (or space) for all 12 would mean re-writing all the music that currently exists in standard notation. However, there's nothing to stop us doing that if we wished.

 

The appearance of a 'two tiered' system is often very confusing at the start, but once you get used to it, it's just another string of names to use in various different ways. It's interesting to read the history of why various systems developed, but I now tend to just lump the names into a basket called "historical reasons".... and treat them all as equals, despite the way they look. That somewhat crude view of it all seems to work for me anyway.

 

Chris

[Cazual]

This wasn't the system that I was thinking of, but Google just found this book for me. The lengthy extracts show several possible staff and naming variants that have been tried, and the author's preferred option (see pages 39 - 49 for diagrams). I've no idea if it attracted many followers.

 

Supermusicology by Ernest Moore Hume

 

In fact, the more I Googled, the more alternatives that I found. There's ones that expand the staff so that every note gets a unique position, instead of having to share, and so on. You can even devise your own. I remember that when I was first trying to play the piano, and really struggling to read music, I worked out a system that read down the page instead of sideways along the staff. It worked too, but transcribing everything was going to take a lot longer than learning to read standard notation did!!

 

Chris

[AlexMC]

Since music is based around scales, things are named in terms of the scales. As mentioned above, when the naming system first started to be used, minor keys were common, so they would simply call the first note 'A,' the second 'B,' and so on.

 

Ok, I had understood that the major scale 'came first' and that all subsequent Western music was based on this. If the natural minor was the first 'official western scale' then A does indeed make sense as the first letter.

 

Not every note in the scale is the same amount apart, which is why E and F and why B and C are only half steps. To fill in the gaps, the extra notes were just called "Bb" (a lower B) or A# (higher than an A).

 

Which scale are you talking about - major, minor or chromatic? Surely in the chromatic scale (i.e. all the musical notes available), all notes ARE equally spaced?

 

I.e. B:C = C:C# = C# = D:D# etc...

 

I found this link very informative:

 

http://www.skytopia.com/project/scale.html

 

You might even know that these very notes (all 12 of 'em!) are usually spread smoothly in nice logarithmic steps from 1 to 2 (an octave). In other words, a pitch played an octave higher is twice as high in pitch as the original, and all 12 notes are spaced evenly inside this octave.

 

Each note of the scale has a name, with the 5th note being Dominant. Some other important ones are "Tonic" for the 1st, "Subdominant" for the 4th, and "Leading Tone" for the 7th. 7th chords built from the dominant scale degree were the first widely used type of 7th chord, so they were simply called "dominant 7ths" (simply meaning "a 7th chord built from the dominant degree").

 

But why 'dominant' in the first place? Why is the fifth degree of the major scale known as 'dominant'?

[AlexMC]

This wasn't the system that I was thinking of, but Google just found this book for me. The lengthy extracts show several possible staff and naming variants that have been tried, and the author's preferred option (see pages 39 - 49 for diagrams). I've no idea if it attracted many followers. Supermusicology by Ernest Moore Hume In fact, the more I Googled, the more alternatives that I found. There's ones that expand the staff so that every note gets a unique position, instead of having to share, and so on. You can even devise your own. I remember that when I was first trying to play the piano, and really struggling to read music, I worked out a system that read down the page instead of sideways along the staff. It worked too, but transcribing everything was going to take a lot longer than learning to read standard notation did!! Chris

 

Wow - the author really seems to understand the topic of this thread! His argument regarding naming notes after numbers rather than letters makes SO much sense, for example.

 

Wish I could buy that book - unfortunately not available in the UK.

[Poparad]

 

Which scale are you talking about - major, minor or chromatic? Surely in the chromatic scale (i.e. all the musical notes available), all notes ARE equally spaced?

 

 

The A minor/C major scale. All of the natural notes.

 

 

But why 'dominant' in the first place? Why is the fifth degree of the major scale known as 'dominant'?

 

 

I'm not sure of the historical reason for naming it that, but that's just what it's called. Here's the complete list:

 

1 - Tonic

2 - Supertonic

3 - Mediant

4 - Subdominant

5 - Dominant

6 - Submediant

7 - Leading Tone

 

When the 7th is a minor 7th, such as in the natural minor scale, it's called the "Subtonic" instead of the "Leading Tone."

[gennation]

 

Hmmm - I thought the answer of "the key signature of Gb" was going to be that "C is flat in Gb major, simple as that". IE I thought it was the case that in key signatures, and in representation of diatonic scales, you never use the same note name twice. (as in Bb-B). Since there have been 10 posts so far and no-one said, this, I wonder if I've got the wrong idea here? GaJ

 

 

Yes, you are correct in saying "in representation of diatonic scales, you never use the same note name twice".

 

The link I posted in post #11 covers this completely and how to work it out correctly every time.

 

It's also of interest to start using the Cycle of 5th's as an analysis tool. The Cycle of 5ths will cover EXACTLY what notes are in what scale...

 

And, if you can find the right chart of it, you'll also see the Keys that go past the "7 sharps or flats" and start using double flats and sharps to include up to 10 or 11 sharps or flats. It might be called the Enharmonic Cycle of 5th's or something, not sure.

 

But, it's VERY interesting to work through that larger chart of Keys based on the "never use the same note name twice" idea, as it will spell out where and when to use double sharps and flats.

[jeremy_green]

 

The A minor/C major scale. All of the natural notes. I'm not sure of the historical reason for naming it that, but that's just what it's called. Here's the complete list: 1 - Tonic 2 - Supertonic 3 - Mediant 4 - Subdominant 5 - Dominant 6 - Submediant 7 - Leading Tone When the 7th is a minor 7th, such as in the natural minor scale, it's called the "Subtonic" instead of the "Leading Tone."

 

 

I always thought that list was really quite descriptive of the tones in question. The 7th tone really does "lead" you to resolution. Also the 5th is the strongest stable interval and therefore the "dominant" one. As you go down that list play the tone in question then play the root note - you can hear how someone came up with those names.

 

To me this stuff make way more sense when you hear the sounds they are describing. Usually they are pretty descriptive.

 

The major scale just sounds so ... clean somehow. Not a great word but to me there is no mystery as to why it is the backbone for most music we hear - it just sounds great and very settled. At least to my very North American ears. Clearly different cultures have different ideas of all this.

 

Theory concepts in a vacuum can be very confusing. When you get more familiar with the sounds they describe it is MUCH clearer - least for me it is.