Advice needed on a digital four track :

[frankn]

I need to make a recommendation to a parent about getting her teenage daughter a digitial 4 track for xmas.

so far i'm thinking

 

Zoom PS04

Zoom MRS8

or

fostex MR8

 

any thoughts about the above? or any other suggestions?

 

I think the mom will spend up to $300.

 

 

thanks.

[fernmeister]

seriously

[frankn]

Originally posted by fernmeister seriously

 

 

 

That looks cool but it's out of the price range and I don't think

they have a mac.

[doug deeper]

for the owners!
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/search/detail/base_id/119958?src=00630
this is really goo for real though...and it has 8 tracks!
woot!

[voerking]

i was going to suggest the exact thing doug just suggested (tascam dp-01). i have the "fx" version & it is phenomenal, especially for the price. the only bummer is you can only record two tracks at a time.

[supascoopa]

Originally posted by doug deeper for the owners! http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/search/detail/base_id/119958?src=00630 this is really goo for real though...and it has 8 tracks! woot!

 

 

+1

[best.album.ever]

as far as standalone recorders go, the fostex mr8 worked out great for me. it was really easy to use and i was able to record some pretty good demos for my own band and another band with it.

might need to upgrade the flash card, but i think its a good investment

[fernmeister]

Originally posted by frankn That looks cool but it's out of the price range and I don't think they have a mac.

 

 

if they already have a mac then a decent firewire interface will be well within the price range.

 

what you can do with garagebnd really blows away anything you can do with a small 4 track.

[frankn]

very cool, thank you guys for all the suggestions.


It has to be a stand alone, have drum patterns and a decent bass simulator. we also don't want to get a computer involved because we don't sit in front of a computer when we have our lessons.

I'm not only teaching her guitar but I'll have to help her incorporate the digital 4 track into the lessons. This student has a lot of creativity.

I think once she gets learns a simple digital 4 track them she can put all her ideas down with bass and drums and then hopefully get a band going with her buddies.

[supascoopa]

i doubt if hard disk recorders include sequencers that let you program drums and bass. i've never seen one like that anyway. she'll need additional drum machine or sequencer

[voerking]

zoom makes something like that...i forget the model name, though....

[frankn]

Originally posted by supascoopa i doubt if hard disk recorders include sequencers that let you program drums and bass. i've never seen one like that anyway. she'll need additional drum machine or sequencer

 

 

 

exactly.....as cool as that tascam is, she'll won't be able to add bass or drums to her ideas.

 

our whole mission is to have her write compelete tunes and then

show the parts to her band mates.

[mabus013]

Originally posted by supascoopa i doubt if hard disk recorders include sequencers that let you program drums and bass. i've never seen one like that anyway. she'll need additional drum machine or sequencer

Are you talking about standalone, or PC/Mac-based DAW? You're wrong in either case. Most of the standalone systems have drum patterns (the programming level available varies from model to model, but none seemed very good, allowing for the most part cliched stock patterns) and a bass simulator (which usually sucks balls). Of course, with the PC/Mac based systems the sky is the limit as far as what's available.

The standalone units, for the most part, are bad investments - they become obsolete really quick, the onboard memory that comes stock is usually a joke (enough to do a three-minute song with four tracks) so that's more money - buy an upgraded flash card or be forced to erase old recordings for new ones, and even if you do you'll have to delete songs as you go anyway.

For the computer, you can get Kristal for free, FruityLoops and other production software (IE drum machine, programmable bass), as much memory as your computer has available (low-end new PCs routinely come with 40+gb hard drives - quite a few three minute, three-chord wonders), infinite upgradability, plus experience that will translate well to more advanced recording down the road. Not to mention visual editing and things like that.

Personally, for the 300 bucks available, I'd get:

Kristal - easy to use and navigate, and free.

Cheap mini mixer and RCA-to-stereo 1/8" cable for an interface

Fruityloops or something similar - don't laugh, there's a lot you can do with FL and while she's learning her instrument, she can learn how to program her own beats, and arrange songs, etc. Even for someone who's been writing songs and playing guitar for years, it's nice to be able to sit down for a few hours and walk away with a completed song or instrumental.

A cheap bass from www.rondomusic.net - if she can plunk out bass notes on her guitar through some kind of cheeseball bass simulator, she can play rudimentary bass, plus it's there for when she gets bored with guitar (it happens to the best of us), not to mention, how many times have you heard this story: "I didn't even play an instrument, but they had a bass lying around..." Having a bass around opens up possibilities for jamming with friends who stop by.

Also, for 25-60 bucks, there are numerous handheld voice recorders available. These serve well as idea catchers, and can be had in microcassette or digital formats, both with their ups and downs. Come on, do you really see anyone doing much more than humming a melody, tapping out a beat, or whatever even with a pocket four track? Any real work will be done at home anyway. These are great to sketch ideas with for development later. Which reminds me, I need to replace the one I had that got stolen with my other gear. Sample catcher, sketchpad, and pocket demo all in one.

Or, skip the bass and mini mixer and get a firewire/USB/PCI interface and a mic. Many interfaces come with software like Traktion or Cubase too.

Screw standalone digital multitracks. The DAT machines of the current era...

[frankn]

Originally posted by best.album.ever as far as standalone recorders go, the fostex mr8 worked out great for me. it was really easy to use and i was able to record some pretty good demos for my own band and another band with it. might need to upgrade the flash card, but i think its a good investment

 

 

 

Does the Fostex mr8 have drum patterns and a bass simulator?

do you dump your ideas on to a media card or the hard drive?

[frankn]

Originally posted by mabus013 Are you talking about standalone, or PC/Mac-based DAW? You're wrong in either case. Most of the standalone systems have drum patterns (the programming level available varies from model to model, but none seemed very good, allowing for the most part cliched stock patterns) and a bass simulator (which usually sucks balls). Of course, with the PC/Mac based systems the sky is the limit as far as what's available. ....etc...

 

 

 

you got some points as far as fairly serious recordings go I think.

 

Personally I use a Boss Br532, I transfer my ideas on to cd disks via a burner, or buy more flash cards.

 

as far as drums : standard patterns are fine when you just want a beat behind your idea. You can always work with a real drummer later.

 

the thing that sucks is that bass simulator on the BR532.

 

 

I don't think those flash cards are going anywhere becuase they are used in camers all the time.

[supascoopa]

maybe some of the recorders have the on-board sequencers, but we're talking about $300 price range, right? i have the fostex vf-08 8-track and it has only a metronome i believe. so i guess that the cheaper fostex mr8 doesn't allow you to create drum and bass patterns. i use fruity loops and drum samples for drums, and i bought cheap yamaha bass and h&k bass amp and record this way. then i can always take my fostex to my friend's house or to our rehearsal place and it's the best thing for me since i don't have a laptop. if she's gonna be using this at home only, a soundblaster live soundcard, a microphone for guitar recordings, fruity loops, some drum samples and a cheap bass will be better indeed.

[mabus013]

See, I originally had a Boss BR-8, right before the 532 came out. At first I thought that it was the {censored}, and since my computer at the time was like a 486 or something it definately was better than a PC-based solution at the time, for me at least.

I thought, hey, amp modelers, built in effects, bass sim, drum machine - great!

Then I got to actually sit down and use the damn thing. The amp simulator was terrible - I usually slag the POD, but this was utterly unusable. I could always demo with a POD, I just wouldn't like the experience very much. The COSM models were terrible, with this super-pronounced pick attack that couldn't be gotten rid of. Bass sims were a joke - you'd be better off with an octave-down box. Drums, again, just stock, cliche patterns, and while your student would likely be able to use them, they were wholly inadequate for what I do to the point of being unusable.

At least that thing came with the Zip drive, which was a cheaper and - I think - better solution than the Flash cards, but since Zip drives were on their way out, now everyone's stuck with Flash, which is still expensive. Solid state memory has come a long way but it's still expensive.

In the end, I ended up with a digital eight track that was loaded with features that sounded good on paper but proved utterly useless in real life. I traded a badass-sounding Marshall head for it, and thankfully I flipped the BR-8 before the bottom fell out on their resale value. Meanwhile, in a DAW you have unlimited tracks, visual editing, etc. If you know what you're doing and keep your eyes peeled, you can find great deals on PC/Mac computers. I picked up a sawtooth G4 for 75 bucks after the Mac Mini came out and a friend had to have one. Mine's only a 400mhz, but performs better than my 1ghz PC and if I lay out 350 bucks, I can upgrade the processor to 1.8 Ghz, which is getting into G5 territory for a quarter of the price. Even if I keep it stock and just add ram and hard drive space, it's going to be adequate - keep in mind that this computer was so state-of-the-art when it came out that export restrictions were placed on it to keep it from getting shipped to places like North Korea - it was classified under weapons protocol. Likely, plenty of hit records were cut on that spec machine at the time, so it's imminently capable of doing what I want it to do now. Something to consider.

If you want PC, check out www.pricewatch.com. Even stock Dell and HP computers, though not easy to upgrade later, are more than capable of running ProTools LE and the like. For 500 bucks, a 1.5ghz, 512mb RAM, 80gb HDD computer can be had all day long. Since it's likely that she already has a PC available to her, 200 dollar interfaces can be had all day long too - usually with just two mic pres, but that's all you need to get started and none of the digital four tracks in that price range are going to have any more inputs available. Add an SM57 and some production software - ACID, FL Studio, whatever - and she can go to town. The production software is a great learning tool - sure, maybe the stock beats will work for what she does, but she'll learn more programming and arranging them herself, and be more knowledgable when it comes time to deal with a real drummer.

I'm just saying, from my perspective...digital four tracks are for those who are so afraid of ProTools and the like that they want that old-school type of interface. Maybe if you didn't have a computer, but like I said, for the money, you could easily buy a computer and have more capabilities, not to mention all of the fringe benefits (email, mp3s, games, media, etc) that come with PCs/Macs. And the flash card thing... unless every third or fourth song you want to commit your old tracks to the flames and be stuck with whatever you had mixed down, you'll have to plop down another 50+ bucks on a new card. With a PC, that project can sit until you get around to adding that new part, re-editing that fade, rearranging the song to your liking, etc. And editing - the whole reason digital media killed analog in the first place - is a breeze on the computer. I don't even want to think about how stone-age it must be trying to get that done via a handful of buttons and a wheel on a standalone unit, via a three-inch LCD screen...

Maybe I'm doing what I hate seeing others do - making an investment in equipment sound like a trivial expense (it isn't), and making things more complicated than it needs to be. But definately research the possibilities before recommending stuff for her parents to buy, and see what might work out best. Personal opinions and preferences aside, it's all about what's going to make learning music fun and edifying for your student. See if a friend has a DAW program that you could let her mess around with and see how she takes to it, and have her mess around with a standalone too - maybe she'll do equally well at either, or take off on one and stagnate on the other. Not a lot of time to get this done before xmas, sure, but it's what I'd do. No one likes throwing money away.

[frankn]

Originally posted by mabus013 See, I originally had a Boss BR-8, right before the 532 came out. At first I thought that it was the {censored}, and since my computer at the time was like a 486 or something it definately was better than a PC-based solution at the time, for me at least. I thought, hey, amp modelers, built in effects, bass sim, drum machine - great! Then I got to actually sit down and use the damn thing. The amp simulator was terrible - I usually slag the POD, but this was utterly unusable. I could always demo with a POD, I just wouldn't like the experience very much. The COSM models were terrible, with this super-pronounced pick attack that couldn't be gotten rid of. Bass sims were a joke - you'd be better off with an octave-down box. Drums, again, just stock, cliche patterns, and while your student would likely be able to use them, they were wholly inadequate for what I do to the point of being unusable. At least that thing came with the Zip drive, which was a cheaper and - I think - better solution than the Flash cards, but since Zip drives were on their way out, now everyone's stuck with Flash, which is still expensive. Solid state memory has come a long way but it's still expensive. In the end, I ended up with a digital eight track that was loaded with features that sounded good on paper but proved utterly useless in real life. I traded a badass-sounding Marshall head for it, and thankfully I flipped the BR-8 before the bottom fell out on their resale value. Meanwhile, in a DAW you have unlimited tracks, visual editing, etc. If you know what you're doing and keep your eyes peeled, you can find great deals on PC/Mac computers. I picked up a sawtooth G4 for 75 bucks after the Mac Mini came out and a friend had to have one. Mine's only a 400mhz, but performs better than my 1ghz PC and if I lay out 350 bucks, I can upgrade the processor to 1.8 Ghz, which is getting into G5 territory for a quarter of the price. Even if I keep it stock and just add ram and hard drive space, it's going to be adequate - keep in mind that this computer was so state-of-the-art when it came out that export restrictions were placed on it to keep it from getting shipped to places like North Korea - it was classified under weapons protocol. Likely, plenty of hit records were cut on that spec machine at the time, so it's imminently capable of doing what I want it to do now. Something to consider. If you want PC, check out www.pricewatch.com. Even stock Dell and HP computers, though not easy to upgrade later, are more than capable of running ProTools LE and the like. For 500 bucks, a 1.5ghz, 512mb RAM, 80gb HDD computer can be had all day long. Since it's likely that she already has a PC available to her, 200 dollar interfaces can be had all day long too - usually with just two mic pres, but that's all you need to get started and none of the digital four tracks in that price range are going to have any more inputs available. Add an SM57 and some production software - ACID, FL Studio, whatever - and she can go to town. The production software is a great learning tool - sure, maybe the stock beats will work for what she does, but she'll learn more programming and arranging them herself, and be more knowledgable when it comes time to deal with a real drummer. I'm just saying, from my perspective...digital four tracks are for those who are so afraid of ProTools and the like that they want that old-school type of interface. Maybe if you didn't have a computer, but like I said, for the money, you could easily buy a computer and have more capabilities, not to mention all of the fringe benefits (email, mp3s, games, media, etc) that come with PCs/Macs. And the flash card thing... unless every third or fourth song you want to commit your old tracks to the flames and be stuck with whatever you had mixed down, you'll have to plop down another 50+ bucks on a new card. With a PC, that project can sit until you get around to adding that new part, re-editing that fade, rearranging the song to your liking, etc. And editing - the whole reason digital media killed analog in the first place - is a breeze on the computer. I don't even want to think about how stone-age it must be trying to get that done via a handful of buttons and a wheel on a standalone unit, via a three-inch LCD screen... Maybe I'm doing what I hate seeing others do - making an investment in equipment sound like a trivial expense (it isn't), and making things more complicated than it needs to be. But definately research the possibilities before recommending stuff for her parents to buy, and see what might work out best. Personal opinions and preferences aside, it's all about what's going to make learning music fun and edifying for your student. See if a friend has a DAW program that you could let her mess around with and see how she takes to it, and have her mess around with a standalone too - maybe she'll do equally well at either, or take off on one and stagnate on the other. Not a lot of time to get this done before xmas, sure, but it's what I'd do. No one likes throwing money away.

Regarding the BR532
Those cosm sounds were very poor indeed.
I never used the sounds the thing had inside. other then one bass patch that was ok at best.
I thought the drums were good enough for a scratch demo.

in the end I think the Zoom is the choice for her.

[Jaggery]

There is a Zoom MRS series which has most of what you want.

[frankn]

ok,

so for better or worse it's down to the

Zoom PS04
or
Zoom MRS8

becuase the fostex does not have the bass/drum thing going for it.

[GTM]

I have the Zoom. I use it as a back up. My main board is a Korg D1600. I also use to own the Fostex MR8. The Zoom has a lot of good sounds and it was the programable drum and bass that sold me on it. It's a bit complicated to use. Since it's so small a lot of the buttons have multi functions. As can be expected the manual sucks. They have a good user forum and the guys there are very helpful. If this girl is creative, smart, patient, etc, she'll apply herself. Also the bass and drums are on dedicated tracks, so you won't use use the 4 recording tracks. It's a good machine. It's also small, a bit noisy and has it's limitations. I'm keeping mine. I take it out on the road, on the boat, where ever. Again, expect to spent some time with it, but there is a lot of bang for the buck in a little box.

[frankn]

ok,

heres what i'm thinking a 16 year old is too impatient to learn
any complicated device. This student is creative but I know she won't get into something complicated.

so I'll just have the mom buy her a Boss Br532 off e-bay.
Then I can teach her how to use the thing myself.

The Boss is easy to use and she can learn from me first hand.

[GTM]

Originally posted by frankn ok, The Boss is easy to use and she can learn from me first hand.

 

 

Good decession:thu:

[EL KABONG]

I agree with the decision. On my recording process I am prolly going to start out low tech with an old tascam porta 4 cassette then end up using my computer with cakewalk.

Frank..
did you ask the question at the recording forum? just a thought.

ps have a safe vacation.

[GTM]

EL KABONG,
I would skip the cassette if I were you. I started out with an old Fostex 4 track cassette and I can tell yu the new digital stuff is a totall different animal. I highly recomment the Fostex MR8 as an entry machine. You get get them on ebay cheap and sell them back for what you paid. You can get a lot of milage out of them.