Why arent all pedals true by pass?

[Mark Vasquez]

Is there something that Boss pedals for example are saving on by using buffering in there pedals? I dont get it. whats the deal. Why arent all pedals true by pass? Is there some sort of catch? Are non by pass pedals companys saying to themselves: "Ok we arent going to make these pedals true by pass because It'll change the overall sound of the pedal and we need it to sound buffered."?

[Sir H C]

Some viewed non-TB as better. It is cheaper to use a cheap non-latching switch (like a keyboard key switch) than a TB one, even with the added parts on the PCB. Allows also for multi-function (Boss Super Feedbacker and Distortion for instance).

[Let It Burn...]

some people actually like the sound a buffer gives to a certain pedal. I can't remember the name of it, but there's a pedal that people love with a buffer and when it's made true-bypass, they say it lacks balls

[herbman]

This has been discussed on the forum countless amounts of times, and what it really comes down to is this: If every pedal on your board was TB and everything was off, you'd have a very long length of cable which can weaken your signal to the amp. The common wisdom in here is generally that you should have some form of HQ buffer first, and then TB for the rest. I run 2-3 boss pedals in front of my amp and a few in my switchable loop and have no problems.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

it's a complicated story that i don't even fully realized. For true bypass, you need at least a 2pdt switch. 3pdt switches were too expensive before or not readily available. They are still very expensive, relatively speaking. Also from what i have heard true bypass has it's own problems, like mechanical and popping noises associated with these switches. Way of getting around using this switch but still having true bypass include the rat bypass, millenium bypass and what zvex does which is similar to the millenium bypass. You can even use a spdt using a relay, which is what dave fox does on his effects. Anyway i'm getting off topic.

True bypass not always good in complicated rigs because of all the wiring that is require and all the impedance mismatch. Having a pedal with a buffer can partially correct some of this. If you listen to some of the pedalmakers, i think some of them will even tell you that they get higher failure rates.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

This has been discussed on the forum countless amounts of times, and what it really comes down to is this: If every pedal on your board was TB and everything was off, you'd have a very long length of cable which can weaken your signal to the amp. The common wisdom in here is generally that you should have some form of HQ buffer first, and then TB for the rest. I run 2-3 boss pedals in front of my amp and a few in my switchable loop and have no problems.

 

 

i kind of like to read jack orman's muzique website because he talks a lot about true bypass. Essentially, he advocates all true bypass pedals driven by a good buffer in front and even possibly at this end of the chain. I was thinking about doing this, but the reward may not be worth the price you have to pay.

[SpectralJulian]

TB pedals don't have a pop if you have a pull down resistor.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

TB pedals don't have a pop if you have a pull down resistor.

 

 

that is true, but not always the case. I've had multiple pedals that pop even with pull down resistors. And pulldown resistor reduces your input impedance, which is not always a good thing.

[jazzdrum]

that is true, but not always the case. I've had multiple pedals that pop even with pull down resistors. And pulldown resistor reduces your input impedance, which is not always a good thing.

 

 

How? Why?

 

I'm about to add a 1.5 meg resister to a TB pedal I am having popping issues with. Why would the resister effect the impedence? would it counteract the advantage in TB?

 

interested.

 

I may just do a DPDT switch and leave the effect output wired to the output jack....it's for an EQ with only modest settings...shouldn't add too much noise, eh?

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

How? Why? I'm about to add a 1.5 meg resister to a TB pedal I am having popping issues with. Why would the resister effect the impedence? would it counteract the advantage in TB? interested. I may just do a DPDT switch and leave the effect output wired to the output jack....it's for an EQ with only modest settings...shouldn't add too much noise, eh?

 

 

well i guess i shouldn't have generalized. You have to know what the schematic looks like first. The info is pretty well explained by jack orman here

http://www.muzique.com/lab/imp.htm

 

"Now we have the gate resistor at 10M but we need to put a pull-down resistor at the front of the circuit to bleed off DC from the input capacitor to eliminate audible pops when the switch is stomped. As shown here, a 1M resistor has been added at the input... so what is the input impedance? Consider that at audio frequencies the capacitor C1 is essentially a short circuit, which places R1 and R4 in parallel in reference to AC signals. The parallel combination is about 909k ohms! The 10M input has been compromised by the addition of the pull-down resistor. This is a common mistake that is seen on many pedal designs. "

 

essentially in the example he gave above, if you add a pull down resistor, it is placed in parallel with the resistor that was controlling the impedance. By adding a new one in parallel, you reduce overall impedance.

[bt2513]

It's too expensive. That's all.

[melx]

"Why arent all pedals true by pass?"

because then no-one would be able to ask "is it true bypass" on here!


........and then have a big discussion about whether it 'really is' true bypass or some other kind of inferior "pretend true bypass" arrangement.

[Mark Vasquez]

hmmm i think im getting the jist of it

[frankfalbo]

We've also found that sometimes there's a noise that isn't technically a "pop" when activated and it's a very simple situation. When a TB pedal is turned on, generally an LED also comes on. The LED pulls more voltage, and for a split second you can hear that phenomenon happening as a "noise". Every circuit responds differently to it, and on some pedals its annoying.

But the key is most of the time it doesn't happen with a dc adaptor. (at least with our bench tests of various pedals) Most of the time its only happening when using a battery, and the battery can't keep up with the power draw. So then logically you would assume that when the battery isn't at full power (but the pedal still sounds okay) the noise is more apparent. That's when some guys think they have a switch that's getting dirty sometimes, if they don't correlate the battery life to noise ratio.

So in that case it's a power issue, not a current drain issue.

[fadedjoy]

i was gonna say i've never heard anything on my tb pedals, but i've never used them with batteries either.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

i think the answer lies somewhere in between. You can have all true bypass, but probably not too many pedals. The approach i am going for is described by Jack

 

http://www.muzique.com/lab/truebypass.htm

 

i guess i could build a buffer to drive the lince, but you can do something like getting a super hard on to drive the pickup.

 

i think for complicated rigs, you're going need a good buffer somewhere.

[Joe Klink]

Here's what I hate about buffered bypass pedalss:

If you have any before a dirt box, the noise adds up even though the effects are off and with gain it's very noticeable.

Sometimes effect signal bleeds into the bypass signal. I have a DOD Octoplus that does this, it's very annoying.

If you use batteries and just one of them starts to get low it causes buzzy distortion in the whole chain.

One or two buffered bypass pedals might not mess with your tone much when bypassed, but hook up more pedals and it adds up quick.

The idea of starting out with a buffered signal and using all true bypass switching is the best way, IMO.

[bvester]

But in that case, wouldn't the most ideal thing be to have a true bypass buffer pedal that is always left on, in front of a chain of all TB pedals?

[bt2513]

But in that case, wouldn't the most ideal thing be to have a true bypass buffer pedal that is always left on , in front of a chain of all TB pedals?

 

 

Then why have the bypass at all? The ideal thing would be to have a buffer that is 100% transparent that can lower your impedance enough on the output to make it through your chain.

 

The simple answer is that its too expensive. Without discussing any more pros and cons, I can't imagine that Boss would continue making buffered pedals if 3PDT PCB mount switches suddenly became cheaper than the buffer components.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

Then why have the bypass at all? The ideal thing would be to have a buffer that is 100% transparent that can lower your impedance enough on the output to make it through your chain. The simple answer is that its too expensive. Without discussing any more pros and cons, I can't imagine that Boss would continue making buffered pedals if 3PDT PCB mount switches suddenly became cheaper than the buffer components.

 

 

expensive? It can be done quite simply for under $20 in parts and the circuit is pretty simple. The buffer in front is a good idea, because ideally you want to preserve all the frequencies coming from your guitar. This is why the zvex super hard is so good. It has a huge amount of input impedance. It gives the guitar that sparkly sound and saves all the highs that normal go to waste going threw all the pedals. I was able to do this with a similar build that jack orman has on his website called the mosfet booster which has 10M as its input impedance. That's pretty high. The mosfet booster is like a poor man's version of the zvex sho. I was so impressed with it but back then i didn't really know what i was doing. I should really do something similar, either a buffer or a boost and put it in front. The builds are really easy and not at all expensive. It's just knowing our chain and pedals.

[Collapse]

Because tb isn't the best possible bypass solution for all situations.

[adeanb]

A buffer like the BS2 can make a big difference. I run one at the beginning of my pedal chain and run an H2O at the end (buffered pedal) w/ all true bypass in between. I use a 5X loop master in between to keep the chain as short as possible and I have found that if you use good cables (like lavacable) it really doesn't matter if your overall length is 40, 60, or 80+ feet. I have even run 100 when using two amps.

[ambys]

So have we concluded that the ideal solution be to have exactly one buffered bypass at the start of your chain and have the rest be TB? Maybe I'll throw my Strobostomp2 in active mode for buffered output and put it before my compressor at the start of my chain.

[melx]

 

So have we concluded that the ideal solution be to have exactly one buffered bypass at the start of your chain and have the rest be TB? Maybe I'll throw my Strobostomp2 in active mode for buffered output and put it before my compressor at the start of my chain.

 

 

the ideal solution is to stop worrying about it, but I must admit I have far less problems with my set up now it ISN'T all TB.

 

when I was running 8 or 9 TB pedals in a row, my big muff had volume issues, I was continually swapping positions of pedals to get them to sound right.

 

Now I just plug everything in and have no problems at all, mine are about half and half now.

[ambys]

the ideal solution is to stop worrying about it, but I must admit I have far less problems with my set up now it ISN'T all TB. when I was running 8 or 9 TB pedals in a row, my big muff had volume issues, I was continually swapping positions of pedals to get them to sound right. Now I just plug everything in and have no problems at all, mine are about half and half now.

 

 

I was just asking because I have a lot of TB pedals, and I've been getting a weird effect on my AD999 at some positions in my change. Basically, when on, it acts as a volume boost--even when all dials are all the way down. I'm wondering if it could be caused by an impedance mismatch of some sort?