My foray into the wide world of synths...HELP!!

[Sherman90]

Without any intention of making a purchase, I entered a local music shop today here in Toronto (Long-Mcquade), and I see a used, mint Yamaha MO8 on sale for $1100 (that's a little less than $999 USD). I wasn't planning on buying a synth, but after 45 minutes and a little bit of research I was unexpectedly sold. I've got 30 days now...and I don't know what to make of things...

 

Some background:

 

- I am a budding pianist and a long-time musician (guitarist, vocalist, bassist, composer, etc.). I had been poking at the idea of owning a synth/digital keyboard for a while, since I need to practise the piano in my bachelor apartment, and for the ability to compose on the wing. I own a Dell laptop with 1gb of Ram, a Core Duo 2ghz processor and no dedicated sound card.

 

Now I don't have a specific problem or dilemma PER SE, but maybe somebody can make sense of all of the following insecurities and recommend the magical product that will solve them all...if such a one exists...

 

- First of all, as far as I am concerned, this Yamaha and every other synth I played at the store is not so far beyond my 1989 Roland D5. Digital samples have always sounded totally artificial to me, and with very few exceptions, so does virtually everything on this keyboard (and on the Fantom X8 they had in the store, and on some $8000 Korg they also had). The only truly good samples are a few woodwinds, the cello, and some other stuff. (The rave reviews I read on harmony-central, with people proclaiming that such-and-such a keyboard sounds "just like a Steinway" strike me as delusional. I have heard dozens of keyboards, and none of them sound even remotely close to my Mason-Rische third-tier upright....!!)

 

- That being said, I am wondering: why buy a synth at all? I don't intend to gig all that often - maybe jam with friends - so I'm wondering if I should have gone with a dedicated midi controller and simply run all of my sounds via the laptop. I bet that for every sample on the MO8, there is a sample that is much better and more richly recorded on an independent release. The piano-tones on the MO8, for example, are among the best I've heard on a stock synth, but still nothing like the "Ivory" VSTs I've heard, let alone the real thing...

 

- Really, all I want is to be able to orchestrate some classical pieces, while having the ability to conjure up a very nice, very rich piano tone for practise.

 

- Oh gosh...let's just get basic here. What exactly, or WHO exactly, is the MO8 for? Will it suit my needs? I really like the weighted keys, but it seems like it is designed to do everything in a half-hearted manner...there are 500 samples, but so many of them are of techno, and don't they all get old after a while?

 

I've been wondering if a keyboard like this exists: a weighted, 88-key midi controller of good quality, with a hard drive so that you can load your OWN VSTs onto it. i.e. something like an m-audio controller, but with the capacity to reproduce IVORY VSTs without running through a laptop computer...

 

Any general comments about the MO8? I doubt I could have done any better for a "hardware synth" at an entry level price...I can't afford any more than what I've spent.

 

Sorry about this general, purposeless rant. Any help would be appreciated.

[XorAxAx]

 

I've been wondering if a keyboard like this exists: a weighted, 88-key midi controller of good quality, with a hard drive so that you can load your OWN VSTs onto it. i.e. something like an m-audio controller, but with the capacity to reproduce IVORY VSTs without running through a laptop computer...

 

You speak of the ultimate convergence device which every keyboard player wants, but nobody has made yet: an all-around great keyboard controller with the ability to load and run synth/effect plugins from a great diversity of manufacturers. Several products have come close, but none have realized this ideal. The Korg OASYS is too expensive and is a closed platform; the Alesis Fusion has too many cut corners and is a closed platform; the Open Labs Neko/Miko, while arguably coming closest, is still way too expensive and relies on a potentially unstable general-purpose PC operating system.

 

(I'd reply to more of your post, but I've had just enough wine tonight to know that I'd make a fool of myself yet still have the restraint to not do so.)

[Mike Conway]

It's more expensive, but has a lot more orchestral samples - the Motif XS. (Note the "XS," as there are several models.) The MO is a stripped down model of the Motif workstations. The XS has the most ROM.

 

Alternately, the Yamaha S90ES sounds good. There is some noise about the upcoming Kurzweil PC3 and its supposedly fantastic string sections. I suggest auditioning these, before making a decision.

 

As already said, if you want to load VSTs and computer programs, the Open Labs' Miko and Neko are powerful PCs inside a dedicated keyboard shell.

[bruto]

Unless you really can't afford it, keep it. The MO8 is a very nice synth. Yamaha has some of the best piano sounds around, and it should be great for composing and orchestrating classical pieces. I think for classical music, you bought the right synth.

 

The other route you mentioned - buying a controller keyboard, an outboard soundcard, Ivory, cables, etc, will cost 2/3 of that and won't have all the sounds that Yamaha has now. Plus the MO8 has dedicated VA circuitry that your laptop never will. Anyway, that's my 2 Canadian cents worth.

[BLive]

"The rave reviews I read on harmony-central, with people proclaiming that such-and-such a keyboard sounds "just like a Steinway" strike me as delusional. I have heard dozens of keyboards, and none of them sound even remotely close to my Mason-Rische third-tier upright....!!"

 

Amen to that, Ive been playing piano stuff through synths for a few years now w/out playing the real thing. Then just a few weeks ago I got to spend some quality time w/ REAL pianos. . . dude there isnt even a comparison. Being 2007, you would think that piano patches would sound more authentic. Ive yet to hear Ivory in person. . but I just agree with you, synths sound decent on piano, but arent good enough yet in my opinion.

 

As far as your problems go, Ive always been interested in the Native Instruments KORE. I dont know if it works the way they say it does, but it basicly organizes and controls all your VSTs into a hardware unit. If I were you, id get a sweet sony vaio laptop w/ stupid amounts of ram, grab a handful of top notch VSTs, and just run that live w/ your midi controller of choice. but then again thats just me!

 

BLive

[Sherman90]

Thanks for your responses, guys. And thank you particularly, XorAxAx, for dropping some names of alternative products, all of which - like you say - tend not to be worth the extra investment.

 

I must say that after some further research I realize that the MO8 is the best keyboard for the price I paid. It seems that nothing can come close for only $1000...

 

In the end, it seems that it all comes down to a question of whether or not to use a "hardware" synth.

 

Can anyone list the names of some GOOD-QUALITY dedicated, 88-key, weighted midi controllers? A friend of mine has an M-Audio, but something about it feels cheap...not nearly as nice as the MO8.

 

If I could hook one of these puppies up to, say, a dedicated synth unit like a MUSE, then perhaps I'd be in business...

 

Any other products people think are worth mentioning? What is it that the XS has that the MO8 doesn't?

 

Oh perfect synth rig, where art thou?

[mrcpro]

 

What exactly, or WHO exactly, is the MO8 for? Will it suit my needs?

 

 

A good question. As you probably know, your board is a cut-down Motif ES8. They chopped the polyphony in half, reduced the number of insert effects blocks from 8 to 3, and eliminated sampling. These are all features important to home recordists, so it's built for gigging then? Well not really. The size is right (the best Yamaha has ever made in an 88... S90ES owners have been green with envy), but they kept the sequencer (which we don't use), and put an external power supply on it, which we detest in a gigging board. Plus they eliminated aftertouch, a very nice feature to most of us players.

 

Yamaha's choice on this board are confusing. I guess the answer is that it's designed to anyone who wanted a Motif or S90 ES, but couldn't afford them and can live with the compromises. But if all you've got to spend is $1000, you're not going to do any better in an 88 key full featured synth with a decent piano. Heck, they're a good deal at $1500 really. The ES soundset is all there with a quality keyboard to play them on.

 

You know, you're either going to click with it or not. It sounds like you've got 30 days to decide. Those of us who like hardware gear just like the simplicity of flipping a switch and playing in seconds.

 

If you ever play out of your apartment (and you said you might) you will appreciate this board.

[gdh]

check out the Fatar controllers.

[realtrance]

Most quality synths have a Fatar keyboard action at this point. Most piano-like synth actions (weighted keys with piano action, like the Roland PA action on the Fantom X8) are substantially more expensive.

 

It sounds like you're starting at the same place I started what, almost 11 years ago now: "none of these keyboard synths sound remotely like even a good CD recording of a piano or other non-electronic instrument performance."

 

True. Always will be.

 

You get a synth, ultimately, you discover, for synthesizer sound. Trying to emulate other instruments will always be a compromise, primarily because the interface to the instrument you're trying to emulate is so different from what you have in front of you.

 

The Mellotron sounded only remotely like a violin section 40 years ago, but still, it became its own trademark sound.

 

Just remember that if you're just trying to use the emulations for accompaniment in a group performance setup, you'll get most of the way there and with practice, only you will really know the difference (and other non-electronic musicians). Most people are so used to the canned emulation of instruments and even vocal performances these days that they've become immunized against the ability to detect the difference. :arg:

[Sherman90]

Thanks again for your advice and support, everyone.

 

 

...As you probably know, your board is a cut-down Motif ES8. They chopped the polyphony in half, reduced the number of insert effects blocks from 8 to 3, and eliminated sampling. These are all features important to home recordists, so it's built for gigging then? Well not really. The size is right (the best Yamaha has ever made in an 88... S90ES owners have been green with envy), but they kept the sequencer (which we don't use), and put an external power supply on it, which we detest in a gigging board. Plus they eliminated aftertouch, a very nice feature to most of us players.

 

 

- So the polyphony on the MO8 is 62-notes, not 124. That number *may* occasionally limit me, but I doubt that even the most exhilerating of Beethoven symphonies used any more than 62 notes at a time. In fact, it strikes me almost as a vulgarity to have over a hundred sounds playing at once!

 

- As for insert effects blocks and sampling, what exactly are these? I apologize for this total amatateurish question, but the effects seem aplenty on the MO8, and as for sampling, I know it has a recording function onboard that I can use to layer multitrack tunes, edit them, and patch them up on the fly. I haven't figure it out myself yet (the gentleman at the store told me it would take "6 months to figure out how to use this thing properly"), but it does seem that the MO8 has *some* kind of "sampling" function. What is the real sampling capability that it's missing?

 

 

If you ever play out of your apartment (and you said you might) you will appreciate this board.

 

 

And if I don't? At this price, is there a better tool for those of us who want to experiment and compose from home?

 

Thanks again everyone!

[Yoozer]

- So the polyphony on the MO8 is 62-notes, not 124. That number *may* occasionally limit me

The term "polyphony" is misleading.

 

The Yamaha and Roland and Korg synths count their polyphony in a different way. More correctly would be "64-note multisample polyphony". A single preset can use up to 4 multisamples at the same time. Having 2 switched on at the same time means a polyphony of 32 voices, having 4 switched on at the same time means a polyphony of 16 voices. So, having a nice double-sample piano with a double layer of orchestral strings suddenly brings down the number. This is why those numbers are so high .

 

The Alesis Ion (a virtual analog) has 3 oscillators and 8 "true" voices of polyphony - if you use 1 or all 3 oscillator, there's still 8 voices; so it doesn't matter if they're switched on or off.

 

- As for insert effects blocks and sampling, what exactly are these?

Different things .

 

An insert effect is like a guitar stompbox. It's between the guitar and the mixer. If you need another effect like it, you either have to

- buy another one of the same

- first record the guitar parts with that effect and then hook it up to something else.

 

This opposed to what most workstations call a "master effect" (in studio terms usually called a "send" effect). For instance, reverb; you can put reverb over every single one of your tracks, but they all use the same settings; so it's not like if you choose "Concert Hall" reverb as master effects you can give another track a "Room" reverb. You can solve this by completely turning the master effect to zero on that track and using the Room reverb as an insert.

 

So, it's all about compromises and finding ways around limitations; even on huge expensive workstation synths the number of effects is limited.

 

I haven't figure it out myself yet (the gentleman at the store told me it would take "6 months to figure out how to use this thing properly")

That's quite condescending .

 

but it does seem that the MO8 has *some* kind of "sampling" function. What is the real sampling capability that it's missing?

I'm missing the word "sampling" in the specification list.

 

In the world of synths, "recording" may have 2 meanings:

- you record the actual notes you're playing (like on sheet music)

- you record the actual sound of those notes (like on tape).

 

The first is not called sampling; it's sequencing. The second generally isn't called sampling either; it's just called recording. The term sampling generally refers to recording certain sounds that your synthesizer just can't do and using them (or modifying them) in a musical context.

 

The best demonstration of sampling can be seen here

[mrcpro]

Look... if this helps ease you mind, you got a very good deal on a very nice board. The MO8 is something I'm looking at personally as a way to get the ES soundset in a package I can move around and can afford. There was one listed in this price range here locally and it sold that day. You are not going to get any better in a keyboard for the things you want to do for this price.

 

So... your other choice is software. If you are good with computers, installing multiple programs and getting them to work together, and love troubleshooting, go for it. I like to flip a switch and play. It's whatever personality type you are that's the fit here.