The schooling continues... preamp tubes and master volume (and NPD too!)

[jhamnett]

I have a Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12 and while I love the cleans, I really don't like the OD. I've figured out that hitting the preamp tubes really hard (volume at 12... yeah, it goes to 12) gives some great OD tones, but in order to calm the overall volume, I have to put my volume pedal with minimum volume pot in the effects loop in order to control the signal to the poweramp. I'd rather not do this so I can use my volume pedal as a... volume pedal, but the tone is too sweet, especially when stacked with my Monsterpiece fuzzes in front of the preamp.

 

So... here's some questions:

- Which preamp tubes would give me good breakup at lower volumes (12Ax7s)?

- Is there a mod to control the master volume so I can put in a pot after the poweramp section? Would hitting the poweramp harder give me better OD? Would changing the poweramp tubes (6L6s) thus give me better breakup?

- Should I just get/make a volume box to put into my effects loop? What position in the loop would be best (first/last)?

 

I've spent a lot of time and money on pedal dirt, but now I'm seeing the light... nothing beats your amp's OD, especially for stacking. This is something I need to improve with my amp, or I need to get a new one... I'd rather not do this.

 

Also, today is a happy NPD: Digitech Whammy IV!! USPS website confirms the delivery this morning!

 

[Dolf]

I have a Fender Hot Rod Deville 2x12 and while I love the cleans, I really don't like the OD. I've figured out that hitting the preamp tubes really hard (volume at 12... yeah, it goes to 12) gives some great OD tones, but in order to calm the overall volume, I have to put my volume pedal with minimum volume pot in the effects loop in order to control the signal to the poweramp. I'd rather not do this so I can use my volume pedal as a... volume pedal, but the tone is too sweet, especially when stacked with my Monsterpiece fuzzes in front of the preamp. So... here's some questions: - Which poweramp tubes would give me good breakup at lower volumes (12Ax7s)? - Is there a mod to control the master volume so I can put in a pot after the poweramp section? Would hitting the poweramp harder give me better OD? Would changing the poweramp tubes (6L6s) thus give me better breakup? - Should I just get/make a volume box to put into my effects loop? What position in the loop would be best (first/last)? I've spent a lot of time and money on pedal dirt, but now I'm seeing the light... nothing beats your amp's OD, especially for stacking. This is something I need to improve with my amp, or I need to get a new one... I'd rather not do this. Also, today is a happy NPD: Digitech Whammy IV!! USPS website confirms the delivery this morning!

 

12ax7s are not poweramp tubes.

 

What you may want to try is to get some of the THD Yellowjackets (converts your 6l6 amp to el84) which will drop your wattage by about half, increase your mids (you'll lose a bit of bass, but you can adjust) and give you earlier breakup.

 

[jhamnett]

12ax7s are not poweramp tubes. What you may want to try is to get some of the THD Yellowjackets (converts your 6l6 amp to el84) which will drop your wattage by about half, increase your mids (you'll lose a bit of bass, but you can adjust) and give you earlier breakup.

 

I edited for the typo with the 12ax7.

 

Yeah, that's also an option. Do you think this would make the amp sound more like an AC30? That's definitely the amp I would replace the Hot Rod Deville with.

[johanwastaken]

 

I edited for the typo with the 12ax7. Yeah, that's also an option. Do you think this would make the amp sound more like an AC30? That's definitely the amp I would replace the Hot Rod Deville with.

 

 

It will not sound exactly like an AC30 but I definitely think it would make the amp sound more like it. EL84 with cathode bias is a big part of AC30's sound.

[jhamnett]

Bump for other ideas to get good tube amp OD at low volumes.

 

Oh, and the Whammy is tons of fun

[hivedestruction]

Dang that pedal got there quicker than I thought it would! Hope ya enjoy it!

[jhamnett]

 

Dang that pedal got there quicker than I thought it would! Hope ya enjoy it!

 

 

I am immensely enjoying it!

 

Bump for the amp question.

[TomCTC]

If you're getting the tones you like with a volume pedal in your loop, I would just grab a volume box and throw that in the loop. They're only like $20 and will do the trick. You could also use an EQ pedal with a level slider, but a volume box would be way badass. You could velcro it to your amp and just keep it on there, too. Problem solved!

[bt2513]

If you're getting the tones you like with a volume pedal in your loop, I would just grab a volume box and throw that in the loop. They're only like $20 and will do the trick. You could also use an EQ pedal with a level slider, but a volume box would be way badass. You could velcro it to your amp and just keep it on there, too. Problem solved!

 

A volume box?

[ZMD]

 

A volume box?

 

 

It's like a volume pedal just with a knob.

[DylanWilde]

I would go Graphic EQ, and take the level slider down to where you want it. The cool thing is that you can also have control over your tone going to the speaker that way, and, if you need to, improve clarity, bass response, create a mid-boost, or just tailor your tone specially to your venue/room while also reducing your output volume to where you want it.

 

And the perfect box for this? The almighty Dano Fish and Chips. . .

 

 

$30 worth of solid win.

[bt2513]

Why not just turn the Master down?

 

Edit:

 

I don't think cranking the preamp gain and master volume only to choke your guitar signal with an EQ, Volume pedal, or "volume box" is going to help your tone. What I think you are looking for is a power attenuator.

 

Cranking the Master but cutting almost all signal going to it doesn't accomplish much but increase your chances for noise. The purpose of the Master volume is to allow you to crank the preamp for more distorted tones at reasonable levels.

 

I think this is what you are looking for....

[jhamnett]

 

Why not just turn the Master down?

 

 

The amp does not have a volume control after the poweramp. Here's the basic info on the HRD chain:

 

Guitar -> Pedals -> Preamp (volume and tone controls here) -> Serial Effects Loop -> Poweramp -> Speakers

 

Yes, I do like the way it sounds with the preamp tube OD, so maybe a retube for a little more breakup and a volume box in the loop would do the trick (with getting a Fish 'n Chips just because it's awesome... I could make a volume box pretty easily). But, I'd like to get some breakup in the poweramp section. I believe the volume box prevents this from happening. I think I'd need a master volume control in between the poweramp and the speakers. It should be feasible, but trickier than other solutions.

[bt2513]

The amp does not have a volume control after the poweramp. Here's the basic info on the HRD chain: Guitar -> Pedals -> Preamp (volume and tone controls here) -> Serial Effects Loop -> Poweramp -> Speakers Yes, I do like the way it sounds with the preamp tube OD, so maybe a retube for a little more breakup and a volume box in the loop would do the trick (with getting a Fish 'n Chips just because it's awesome... I could make a volume box pretty easily). But, I'd like to get some breakup in the poweramp section. I believe the volume box prevents this from happening. I think I'd need a master volume control in between the poweramp and the speakers. It should be feasible, but trickier than other solutions.

 

:confused:

 

Unless I'm missing something here, your amp has a "Master" control on it. Does it not?

 

Google seems to think so...

[jhamnett]

:confused: Unless I'm missing something here, your amp has a "Master" control on it. Does it not? Google seems to think so...

 

It's a misleading label. The amp actually has no "Master" control... the volume labeled "Master" is the clean channel volume.

[bt2513]

 

The amp does not have a volume control after the poweramp. ....... I think I'd need a master volume control in between the poweramp and the speakers. It should be feasible, but trickier than other solutions.

 

 

OK. After rereading your post, DO NOT DO THAT.

 

The poweramp section of your amp needs to see a certain ohm load (typically between 8 and 16 ohms) on the output at all times. Plugging a homemade "volume box" or any other device that does not provide this resistance will cause the output transformer to basically burn up... smoke and all. Pedals aren't built to handle the current coming out of the amp and they will probably also be damaged. Just use the Master control on the amp to control the volume or purchase a power attenuator that connects between the speaker out of the amp and the speakers themselves. Attenuators have special transformers that provide the resistance the poweramp requires but are designed to not color your tone.

[bt2513]

 

It's a misleading label. The amp actually has no "Master" control... the volume labeled "Master" is the clean channel volume.

 

 

You'll have to forgive my ignorance, I think I'm the only one on the planet who doesn't own one of these things.

 

So basically, when you are on the overdrive channel, this Master control does nothing?

[jhamnett]

 

You'll have to forgive my ignorance, I think I'm the only one on the planet who doesn't own one of these things. So basically, when you are on the overdrive channel, this Master control does nothing?

 

 

Exactly... and the OD channel pales in comparison to the tube OD I've been getting.

 

OK, so volume between poweramp and speakers is out. How about one after the phase inverter, as in the AC30? In this case, I'd need to know where in the circuit that would have to go.

 

Maybe going for the THD Yellowjackets would be a nice option, dropping the voltage and overall output of the amp while providing the EL84 goodness.

[TomCTC]

Sounds like you just need to get an AC30.

 

 

Or AC15, depending on how much juice you need.

[jhamnett]

Sounds like you just need to get an AC30. Or AC15, depending on how much juice you need.

 

Oh, the GAS is off the charts on that right now... but it's also mucho moolah. Maybe GC will have it for 40% off when "The List" is revealed this weekend?

 

Doubtful

 

I have parts to fix other problems with this amp (WGS Veteran 30 speakers, the Mid control mod, putting an audio pot in for the OD channel volume), but this is a fundamental problem with this amp that I might not be able to solve with modding.

 

Other than that, it's checking the spam and Craigslist.

[bt2513]

You can try the yellowjackets but I have no experience with them nor have I heard much on them. I would not recommend modding the circuit in any way unless you are trained to work on circuits that deal with lethal voltages. Honestly, your most versatile, toneful, and simple option is to take a look at an attenuator / power soak / load box (all the same thing basically). Here are a few:

 

Badcat Leash

 

Dr. Z Airbrake

 

THD Hotplate

 

Weber MASS (and an article about your situation)

[jhamnett]

 

You can try the yellowjackets but I have no experience with them nor have I heard much on them. I would not recommend modding the circuit in any way unless you are trained to work on circuits that deal with lethal voltages. Honestly, your most versatile, toneful, and simple option is to take a look at an attenuator / power soak / load box (all the same thing basically). Here are a few: Badcat Leash Dr. Z Airbrake THD Hotplate Weber MASS (and an article about your situation)

 

 

I have a power resistor to drain the caps, but my "training" has only been online. I'm an engineer, so of course I think I can do anything technical... maybe I'll bring it to a tech.

 

I'm liking the attenuator idea... kinda replaces the "master" control I've been seeking.

[Dolf]

 

You can try the yellowjackets but I have no experience with them nor have I heard much on them. I would not recommend modding the circuit in any way unless you are trained to work on circuits that deal with lethal voltages. Honestly, your most versatile, toneful, and simple option is to take a look at an attenuator / power soak / load box (all the same thing basically). Here are a few: Badcat Leash Dr. Z Airbrake THD Hotplate Weber MASS (and an article about your situation)

 

 

yellowjackets are not a modification to the circuit, they are a drop-in tube replacement and require no previous electronics experience.

[bt2513]

 

yellowjackets are not a modification to the circuit, they are a drop-in tube replacement and require no previous electronics experience.

 

 

Yes, you are correct.

 

I was referring to this statement

 

 

OK, so volume between poweramp and speakers is out. How about one after the phase inverter, as in the AC30? In this case, I'd need to know where in the circuit that would have to go.

 

[bt2513]

I have a power resistor to drain the caps, but my "training" has only been online. I'm an engineer, so of course I think I can do anything technical... maybe I'll bring it to a tech. I'm liking the attenuator idea... kinda replaces the "master" control I've been seeking.

 

I guess I like the idea of an attenuator better because I don't see a need to modify the amp. There are just too many AC30ish amps out there for not a lot of money that, if I were you, make it unnecessary to modify an amp in great condition. I would probably sell it and do something else if you are unhappy with it... modding it will really decrease its value (especially if not done by a reputable tech). The power attenuator isn't going to transform your amp into something its not.. it would probably just give you MORE of what you already like about the amp.

 

BTW, I never said it but happy NPD! I was jonesing for a Whammy a while back... my wallet is lucky that there is no more room on my pedal board.