Trombone mouthpieces.

[DemiFrost]

I need suggestions on mouthpieces.

 

I currently use the default mouthpiece that came with my trombone; don't know the model since its box is in its case at school.

 

I have a Bach Omega, tenor trombone in the key of Bb/F, similar to this one.

 

http://www.bachbrass.com/content/trombones/tb200b.php

 

Next year, since I'll most likely be first chair in my section, I'll get the first trombone parts. Right now, my high register is pretty weak. I have no problems with low notes, but I usually have some difficulty getting out a G (three ledger lines above). So basically, F is my highest note that I can comfortably reach. If I've been playing for a while, my lips get tired and even those notes become difficult to squeeze out.

 

I also play in jazz band and wind ensemble, those two usually in the same concert while concert band is in another.

 

Basically, I need a mouthpiece that...

-Makes the high register more comfortable.

-Isn't too harsh on the mouth so my lips don't get tired too fast.

-Nice, warm tone.

-Versatile enough for those three groups (concert band, wind ensemble, jazz band.)

 

After playing on my old trombone with the smaller mouthpieces, I've decided I'm more comfortable with larger mouthpieces, as my lips started to feel weird after practicing for about 45 minutes. (I was practicing marching music.)

 

Help, please?

[sunburstbasser]

I'm not a tromboner, but from my readings on the subject the mouthpieces are pretty similar in design, overall, to trumpet mouthpieces.

 

With trumpet mouthpieces, there are a few rules:

 

1. A shallower mouthpiece will make high notes easier to play, will brighten up the tone, and can make intonation difficult if it is too shallow.

 

2. A bigger backbore will allow more air in, and darken the sound of a bright mouthpiece.

 

3. Its OK to have a few mouthpieces.

 

4. Try to keep the width similar on your mouthpieces if you intend to switch between them, and alter the depth and back bore instead of the width.

 

Now, I don't know too many trombone players with more than about 2 mouthpieces, but lots of trumpet players have several. Bach's trombones are pretty good, so what I'd suggest is playing through a few different mouthpieces and seeing what works best for you. In your situation, I'd get two that are the same WIDTH, but one shallower than the other for jazz/marching band (brighter tone). I do this with my trumpet for different groups.

 

If that isn't an option, look for one with a softer rim. I found that Schilke trumpet mouthpieces have considerably softer rims than Bachs, for instance. This will help keep the instrument from "biting" you.

 

Also, depending on what you practice, you can likely improve your high range very easily. Play pedal tones using your high range embouchure, for instance. Cat Anderson did this to keep his high notes sounding full.

 

Bach's website lists the 12C trombone mouthpiece as the most common, so thats what your probably is. A Bach 12E would be slightly shallower, aiding upper-register work a bit.

 

You can do some comparison work with the Schilke mouthpieces and see if any are comparable to yours in size, unless you want something completely different.

 

http://www.schilkemusic.com/

 

What all mouthpiece brands can you try locally?

[soundministries]

Look at the Denis Wick mp's. I've currently got a 6bl and a 4 1/2 AL heavy wall and love them. These are both large shank but they do make very nice small shanks. If you're looking for a larger mouthpiece I'd recomend the Wick 4BS. I'll be trading in my mouthpieces here pretty soon to standardize my large and small shank mouthpieces using the 4BL & 4BS. I've been using the Wick mp's for the last ten years and love them. They are a much better mp than the Bachs IMO.

[DemiFrost]

Hmm, I didn't know you could demo mouthpieces.

 

Well, there's about two stores in my town and another big one a bit farther away.

 

Local store lists Armstrong, Yamaha, Conn, Bach, Selmer, Besson, Holton, King, Leblanc, Jupiter, Gemeinehardt, Buescher, Buffet, Glaesel, Meisel, Thoma, Strunal, Van Doren, Rico. I've only seen Bach mouthpieces on display though.

 

Sam Ash lists Jean Baptiste, Blessing, Bach, Yamaha.

 

Other store lists Bach, Conn, and a bunch of others.

 

I dunno about getting more than one mouthpiece, my mom was sketchy about getting a new one, period.

[sunburstbasser]

Demo a few and get two used ones off of Ebay! I've seen lots of more popular MP brands going for 1/4 the price of a new one.

 

But if you just want one, take your horn and play a bunch. Most of those brands will be based on Bach designs but with luck one will fit your lips much better.

 

The custom MP makers are hard to beat, like the Wicks. Pricey, but you'll never need a new one unless you want one!

[JLo]

Originally posted by DemiFrost Basically, I need a mouthpiece that... -Makes the high register more comfortable. -Isn't too harsh on the mouth so my lips don't get tired too fast. -Nice, warm tone. -Versatile enough for those three groups (concert band, wind ensemble, jazz band.) Help, please?

 

 

You should look at some Shilke and (other model) Bach mouthpieces. Yamaha's are Ok, but their entry level stuff isn't so great. Do not buy anything from Jean Baptiste.

 

What you describe is a problem with the bite of the mouthpiece. That is, the sharpness of the edge on the inside of the mouthpiece. The sharper the bite, the less longetivity you have. The tradeoff though is technique, as your agility across lip slurs will diminish with a rounder edge. Shilke's do have a rounder bite, bach's a little sharper.

 

I would guess you are playing on a Bach 12C, a standard mouthpiece to come with a horn. I would perhaps try a Bach 6 1/2 AL as an alternative.

 

the 6 1/2 AL has a smaller back bore (the hole inside the mouthpiece) though, so there is some more back pressure, a tendancy to sound a little brighter in timbre, but stuffier to play. You will need to practice to get over that

 

The best option though is not always in equipment, but practicing on what you have. Under the assumption you have a 12C, it is a great general mouthpiece that pros play on everyday. Working on you range will only make you a better player overall. Start slowly and don't shoot for the high Bb too early. Get the F and G to sound good, be in tune and come easily, and the other notes will start to fall into place

 

 

 

EDIT: so i just finished reading sunburtbasser's post and realized we said almost the same thing...

[DemiFrost]

Hmm, well I have about 3-4 months before I will go out to get a new one, maybe. Perhaps I will decide I won't need one by then? I've had this horn/mouthpiece since November.

 

What's the differences between small and large shank?

 

Oh, and I'll probably check tomorrow if the one I have is indeed a 12C. Have a Memorial Day parade to do.

[sunburstbasser]

The shank is the length of the tube that fits into the lead pipe. I don't know what size you need for your trombone, but I'd wager that the sizes aren't interchangeable (like trumpet and cornet mouthpieces are not interchangeable).

[DemiFrost]

Hmm, on Bach's website, it lists

 

› Large Shank Tenor, Bass Trombone

 

and

 

 

› Small Shank Tenor Trombone, Baritone & Euphonium

 

I do remember when trying out new horns when I was getting my new one that one of the demo mouthpieces looked like the same width (cup wise) as a normal mouthpiece but it was pretty loose when I put it in. Perhaps that's the difference?

[soundministries]

Originally posted by DemiFrost Hmm, well I have about 3-4 months before I will go out to get a new one, maybe. Perhaps I will decide I won't need one by then? I've had this horn/mouthpiece since November. What's the differences between small and large shank? Oh, and I'll probably check tomorrow if the one I have is indeed a 12C. Have a Memorial Day parade to do.

 

Large shank mp is used for bass trombones, large bore tenors, and professional euphoniums. Small shank are used for student model euphoniums, small bore tenor trombones, and baritones. You can easily match cup and bore size while having both a large and a small shank mp. I will be doing this later in the summer as I am more of a low brass all around player rather than specialist on one horn or style, and go between small tenor, euph, and bass trombone quite a bit. This will help me to have consistency when changing horns. The only other mp I will have will be a true bass trombone mp, which I normally use a Bach 1 1/4G. I'll be standardizing with the Denis Wick 4bs and 4bl with the only difference being the shank that goes into the horn.

[DemiFrost]

What would qualify for large-bore tenor? I know my student one was .500 and my regular one is .525 or so.

 

And damn, I forgot to check my mouthpiece today.

 

I must say, Memorial Day parades are brutal. ;_;

[soundministries]

The large bore tenor trombones are typically professional symphonic models such as the higher end Bach and Yamaha horns. Almost all student and intermediate model tenors are small bore.

[thenagus]

I have a .547 , and that's the standard orchestral large bore size, I think. The usual `small` bore size is .500 (Although real small bore can be like .450, which is what's used on older-style trombones IIRC.)

I've heard .525 referred to as `mediam bore`... but I don't know which mouthpiece you'd use for it. You'll just have to try them, I guess.

[DemiFrost]

Alright, I looked at my mouthpiece box and it's a Bach 6 1/2AL, small shank.

 

After paying attention to the feel of it today in jazz, I feel that when going for E or higher, the rim of the mouthpiece kinda puts pressure on my lips and it's kinda annoying. It handles low register pretty well. As far as rim size goes...I guess it's pretty close to the right size. If I practice my final piece/wind ensemble music later, I'll try to decide about that. It also feels like I'm wasting a lot of air as compared to playing on my other mouthpiece+trombone, but they may just be because the bore is larger on this one.

 

Any new suggestions from my analysis?

 

Just another question, how can I improve my vibrato? The variation in pitch seems a bit too wide for me when I do it compared to others.

[DemiFrost]

Hmm, it feels that when I play on the 6-1/2AL, it's too small and some of my air is escaping through the side, so I think I'll go with mouthpieces at 25.50 mm as opposed to 25.40 mm.

 

So far, I've picked out...

 

Schilke Symphony Series Trombone Mouthpiece (D5.1* Gold)

-For concert band / wind ensemble. From my research, I've decided on wide and flat for the rim, and slightly deeper cup for richer tone.

 

Schilke Gold Plated Trombone Small Shank (51C4)

-For marching band / jazz band. Same rim type, medium-shallow cup for brighter tone and better high register.

 

Both are the same diameter.

Comments?

[soundministries]

Just a word of caution, I'm a big proponant of gold mp's but I would caution you using one for marching band. I love the feel of my gold vs. the silver but I rarely use the gold ones for MB as they occasionally have that tendancy to fall out and just get beat up more. With the excess cost of the gold I would personally buy the silver one for marching and the gold for everything else, but that is just my preference.

 

I haven't tried the Schilke mp's but know lots of guys using them. Hope they work out well for you.

[DemiFrost]

 

Originally posted by soundministries Just a word of caution, I'm a big proponant of gold mp's but I would caution you using one for marching band. I love the feel of my gold vs. the silver but I rarely use the gold ones for MB as they occasionally have that tendancy to fall out and just get beat up more. With the excess cost of the gold I would personally buy the silver one for marching and the gold for everything else, but that is just my preference. I haven't tried the Schilke mp's but know lots of guys using them. Hope they work out well for you.

 

 

Are the tonal differences major? I think that might be wise since jazz band (I'll share the same mouthpiece for jazz and marching) doesn't really rely on tone. I guess I'll be able to save some cash there.

 

Thanks.

 

Hmm, just had select ensembles concert, and I didn't get too fatigued, though there was an intermission and other group between jazz band and wind ensemble. Tone was pretty good and experimented with vibrato, but I cracked on a few notes, especially a key high G at the end of "The Hounds of Spring." Blah.

I dunno, but my tone in jazz is kinda weak.

[sunburstbasser]

From what I've heard, gold doesn't really alter the tone so much as the feel. It is supposedly quicker to warm up and softer than silver in feel. Otherwise, it just looks pretty. I haven't had a gold plated mouthpiece yet, or even a gold-rim mouthpiece, though, this is all hearsay.

 

From Dillon's page:

 

ARTIST MODEL - Similar to the #51 with a slightly shallower cup and a #4 semi-flat rim. Developed for Byron Peebles, trombonist of the Los Angeles Philharmonic.

 

Thats the 51C4 mouthpiece. Sounds like it could be an excellent all-around mouthpiece! Dillon's price was $46.50. If its good enough for someone in the LA Philharmonic, it can't be too bad. I'd say wait for one to pop up used and snatch it up, if you can wait.

 

BTW, I played Hounds of Spring about 5 years ago, probably a lower-level arrangement, but thats a sweet piece.

[DemiFrost]

 

Originally posted by sunburstbasser From what I've heard, gold doesn't really alter the tone so much as the feel. It is supposedly quicker to warm up and softer than silver in feel. Otherwise, it just looks pretty. I haven't had a gold plated mouthpiece yet, or even a gold-rim mouthpiece, though, this is all hearsay. From Dillon's page: ARTIST MODEL - Similar to the #51 with a slightly shallower cup and a #4 semi-flat rim. Developed for Byron Peebles, trombonist of the Los Angeles Philharmonic. Thats the 51C4 mouthpiece. Sounds like it could be an excellent all-around mouthpiece! Dillon's price was $46.50. If its good enough for someone in the LA Philharmonic, it can't be too bad. I'd say wait for one to pop up used and snatch it up, if you can wait. BTW, I played Hounds of Spring about 5 years ago, probably a lower-level arrangement, but thats a sweet piece.

 

 

Eh, the softness would kinda be nice for marching band, but oh well.

 

Hmm, it'd seem odd that a "bright" mouthpiece like that one would be used in a philharmonic. Maybe instead of just using each mouthpiece for each group, I'd use both depending on my needs for a particular song? (except for marching, obviously.)

 

I can't really see how you'd arrange the Hounds of Spring for a lower level without destroying the feeling of it. o_O

 

We played...

Fate of the Gods (Reineke)

Third Suite (Jager)

First Movement of Symphony No. 40 in G minor (Mozart)

Concertante [alto sax feature]

The Hounds of Spring (Reed)

 

Wish I'd ordered a CD of the recordings of all our performances, tonight's was pretty amazing.

[soundministries]

 

Originally posted by DemiFrost Are the tonal differences major? I think that might be wise since jazz band (I'll share the same mouthpiece for jazz and marching) doesn't really rely on tone. I guess I'll be able to save some cash there. Thanks. Hmm, just had select ensembles concert, and I didn't get too fatigued, though there was an intermission and other group between jazz band and wind ensemble. Tone was pretty good and experimented with vibrato, but I cracked on a few notes, especially a key high G at the end of "The Hounds of Spring." Blah. I dunno, but my tone in jazz is kinda weak.

 

 

The tonal differences are minor if any at all. I like the gold because of the feel of it against my lips. It is a softer metal so for me it does seem to help with the fatigue though I can't confirm that with proven fact. I really like it for my uses.

[sunburstbasser]

Originally posted by DemiFrost Eh, the softness would kinda be nice for marching band, but oh well. Hmm, it'd seem odd that a "bright" mouthpiece like that one would be used in a philharmonic. Maybe instead of just using each mouthpiece for each group, I'd use both depending on my needs for a particular song? (except for marching, obviously.) I can't really see how you'd arrange the Hounds of Spring for a lower level without destroying the feeling of it. o_O We played... Fate of the Gods (Reineke) Third Suite (Jager) First Movement of Symphony No. 40 in G minor (Mozart) Concertante [alto sax feature] The Hounds of Spring (Reed) Wish I'd ordered a CD of the recordings of all our performances, tonight's was pretty amazing.

 

I've played Fate of the Gods as well. WONDERFUL piece!

 

I don't remember if it was a stripped-down Hounds, Fate of the Gods was the high-end arrangement. Both great.

 

As far as bright mouthpieces, you are going to sound roughly the same regardless of mouthpiece. The idea is to use a mouthpiece that gets that sound out the easiest, and some players like a more brilliant sound even for classical music. The shallower mouthpieces help in this respect a lot.

 

Of course, its up to you to find the right gear. Hope you find the right mouthpiece for you.

[DemiFrost]

Yeah, loved playing those.

 

Heh, didn't think I'd be so picky about this stuff. Tone (for guitar or trombone) was never really something I thought about until I started coming here. And here I am now, researching as much as I can.

 

Thanks for the help.

[sunburstbasser]

I'm glad to help!

 

Is there a good trombone teacher or a few good players in your area? They may have a few mouthpieces that the stores don't that you might like too.

[DemiFrost]

 

Originally posted by sunburstbasser I'm glad to help! Is there a good trombone teacher or a few good players in your area? They may have a few mouthpieces that the stores don't that you might like too.

 

 

Well, apart from the ones in my school, I don't know any, really. I don't think any of them have teachers, nor do they use any mouthpiece/horn that they didn't start with so yeah.

 

I think the euphonium player's teacher also does trombone since he teaches one of the trombone players that are incoming next year, though.