Members AnalogGuy Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 Hi. I am wondering if here is composers like me who make music mainly in this spontenous way, improvising. I do always improvs. Here's couple examples what is really improvising music instantly; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crawling Wind Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 That's all I ever do. Even with multi-track, I just roll the tracks one after another, and improvise over what I hear. Later on, I remove quite a bit and wind up with mostly what I started with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tomkeen Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 I improvise and try to remember the stuff I find worthwhile to write a song from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nillerbabs Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 This may seem primitive, but sometimes I just groove on, hitting some random chords. From time to time, a chord simply sucks. Well, that's it. I'm just glad I'm not live.The gain is that often I just find a chord I never would've tried out if I were sober or playing "sanely". Then, well, I memorize the chord, and these help adding colour to the palette, which is obviously also extended in many other ways than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jason_stanfield Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 A couple of those Vangelis videos seem less like "improvs" and more like a new age approach to jazz, like he has a basic structure worked out ahead of time, then noodles with permutations he's been through before. (Not a criticism, mind you - just an observation.) This raises interesting questions that I try not to think about too much (so I'll torture everyone else with them!): - When is music truly improvised? How does the listener know? Or can they know for sure? - How much thought happens before you strike a note? A moment? A minute? Or is "true improvisation" a "thoughtless" process? - If so, does that mean any "mindless" playing is improv (resulting in stuff that sounds like the more insane works of Sun Ra), or does one have to be such an expert player that exploring melodies and harmonies becomes as automatized as your style of speech (i.e. Keith Jarrett's solo piano concerts)? - Anything literally written down comes from the mind first, so when a musical choice is made, does it become "written" and no longer "improvised? How much thought goes into what you're going to play, even if you've never played it before, to make it "written" versus "improvised"? Does that make improvisation a choice-less process, or is improv all about choices? - Can it be said that one player is a better improviser than another one? - If so, how do you judge whether someone whose "out there" playing is the result of conscious choices, stream of consciousness ... or that they just really suck, but know how to look like they know what they're doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Konway Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 The quote in your signature is both illogical and completely subjective - I also disagree with it 100%. I guess if he's trying to be some sort of elitist musical 'artist' by spouting some snobbery about improv being the only "pure" music that's his prerogative, but I can guarantee there's a lot of improv out there that "captures the truth of the moment" and still sounds like absolutely unbearable garbage that isn't worthy of the term "music." I don't think music is necessarily about capturing "the truth of the moment." Music is first about sounding good and appealing to your audience, and if you want to talk about eliciting an emotional response from your audience based on capturing a moment or emotion I'd say there's no reason to exclude analytical thinking from the creation of your song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AfroRouge Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 I improvise because I have no skills to do anything else, at least when it comes to playing around with my keyboard (although I'm glad I had piano lessons as a kid). It's why I rely so heavily on sequencer-oriented devices. I'm trying to move away from that a bit, though, and the Blofeld has inspired me to focus again (after years) on what some forumites refer to as THE MUSIC. Good improv takes skill. There may not be any "thought" going on, but there's a lot of skill under the hood that produces musically interesting results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChristianRock Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 I plan my songs out before recording and even more so before playing live, does that make me an "impure" musician? I wonder if Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Dvorak, Brahm, Schubert and others would agree that "thought cannot be a tool of creation"... I wonder how many symphonies would have been created by improv? Having said that, there's some real good improvisational stuff especially in the world of synth-oriented music, but there's also a ton of garbage, especially by people playing "real instruments". Anyone ever heard some of Pat Metheny's improv CDs? Pure unadultered crap from an otherwise genius musician. And don't even get me started on Phish and Grateful Dead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AfroRouge Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 The anti-intellectualism bent of any argument that improv is the only "pure" music makes me throw up a little in my mouth, though I think it's essential that improv is an essential part of the broad fabric of music generally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jason_stanfield Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 The anti-intellectualism bent of any argument that improv is the only "pure" music makes me throw up a little in my mouth, though I think it's essential that improv is an essential part of the broad fabric of music generally. I agree ... ... until I hear people like Gabriella Montero, who improvises classical styles like the average guitarist does blues licks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members setAI Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 All of my work is improvised- although sometimes layers and long sections of soundscape are carefully constructed over time- the final piece is always an extemporaneous mixing together of these prerecorded parts and improvised sounds - even when I do melodic/rhythmic sequencer-heavy stuff [i don't have much of that recorded for some reason- it's on my to-do list] I use analog style sequencers/arpeggiators and interact with them while performing/recording a piece Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members girevik Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 Classical folklore states that all classical pianists up to the 19th century were able to improvise a piece of music on the spot - Bach and Mozart among the most famous examples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nat whilk II Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 Improv comes from stuff you used to have to think about anyway. nat whilk ii Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnalogGuy Posted February 6, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 A couple of those Vangelis videos seem less like "improvs" and more like a new age approach to jazz, like he has a basic structure worked out ahead of time, then noodles with permutations he's been through before. (Not a criticism, mind you - just an observation.) This raises interesting questions that I try not to think about too much (so I'll torture everyone else with them!): - When is music truly improvised? How does the listener know? Or can they know for sure? - How much thought happens before you strike a note? A moment? A minute? Or is "true improvisation" a "thoughtless" process? - If so, does that mean any "mindless" playing is improv (resulting in stuff that sounds like the more insane works of Sun Ra), or does one have to be such an expert player that exploring melodies and harmonies becomes as automatized as your style of speech (i.e. Keith Jarrett's solo piano concerts)? - Anything literally written down comes from the mind first, so when a musical choice is made, does it become "written" and no longer "improvised? How much thought goes into what you're going to play, even if you've never played it before, to make it "written" versus "improvised"? Does that make improvisation a choice-less process, or is improv all about choices? - Can it be said that one player is a better improviser than another one? - If so, how do you judge whether someone whose "out there" playing is the result of conscious choices, stream of consciousness ... or that they just really suck, but know how to look like they know what they're doing? Yeah... these are the questions that always will be there... When music is truly improvised? In my pure opinion, it's just basically that you do music without any preparations. Improvisating needs to be something you never know in advance, using "hided" skills to make something you wouldn't expect to do all by yourself... trying to go beyond the music, trying to go beyond your own mind and thoughts... this may sound weird, isn't it? How much thought happens before you strike a note? That's something which everyone could make own opinions, there's no correct answer... ..does that mean any "mindless" playing is improv..? Umm... yes and no... the improvisation skills are so different within every different person. I would consider improv both in sides as from 3 year old child banging a piano, to the Vangelis' ultra accurate improvisations which you never would expect to be improvisations at all. So when a musical choice is made, does it become "written" and no longer "improvised? How much thought goes into what you're going to play, even if you've never played it before, to make it "written" versus "improvised"? Umm... that's hard to tell... I would consider notation as non-improv because you need to think carefully all noted and all of those sort of things... so it's not spontaneous anymore. However, for example, Vangelis did play spontaneously, improvised the titles of Chariots of fire!!! The ultra famous piano song, it is really improvisation! And because it became famous, they made that song into a notes... but I said "they" because Vangelis didn't it as he cannot read and write notes at all!!! So even thought it is now the written song, it is still originally improvised song after all. Can it be said that one player is a better improviser than another one? Sure, of course... but it's mainly just about depending of the view of the listener... it is really totally different of each person... depending of their own skills, approaches and even thoughts. Some persons may like or dislike 3 year old kid banging a piano how do you judge whether someone whose "out there" playing is the result of conscious choices, stream of consciousness ... or that they just really suck, but know how to look like they know what they're doing? That's also very difficult question. I could make article about this, but let's say that, you could conclude that by listening the music by yourself... for example I usually recognize "honest music" and that if it is made with passion, love for music, or is it just made up for selling, making money and profit and trying to be famous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChromaLord Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 Hi. I am wondering if here is composers like me who make music mainly in this spontenous way, improvising. I do always improvs. Here's couple examples what is really improvising music instantly; Uh, Dude isn't that jazz?- you know being self indulgent, masturbating with your instrument and hoping everybody else will think your cool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnalogGuy Posted February 6, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 The quote in your signature is both illogical and completely subjective - I also disagree with it 100%.I guess if he's trying to be some sort of elitist musical 'artist' by spouting some snobbery about improv being the only "pure" music that's his prerogative, but I can guarantee there's a lot of improv out there that "captures the truth of the moment" and still sounds like absolutely unbearable garbage that isn't worthy of the term "music."I don't think music is necessarily about capturing "the truth of the moment." Music is first about sounding good and appealing to your audience, and if you want to talk about eliciting an emotional response from your audience based on capturing a moment or emotion I'd say there's no reason to exclude analytical thinking from the creation of your song. But be noted that Vangelis is very special case in music industry. He cannot read or write notes and he's music is basically made from the pure interest to sounds itself. For example, Vangelis needed to hit and touch objects to hear them and by sound he could define the character of the object. And this improvising is the only way how Vangelis can do his music. Vangelis couldn't ever learn notes since his childhood because his approach to music was totally based on sounds itself, not notes or literature. That's why he couldn't "learn" other's songs but just improvise his own music... This is just a standpoint of Vangelis... for him this method is pure and the only way... but I think everyone should make their own way of making music. He's not a snob or anything like that... he just dislike the dominant music industry, the idea of music being just repeating same hits all over again and never going foward. I would like to point out my second favourite artist, J-M Jarre. His music was great in 70' and 80' but since the 1993 album Chronologie, I feel that he lost his creativity peek and just end up being keeping his concerts of repeating evergreen hits like oxygene and equinoxe forever... there's a lot of improv out there that "captures the truth of the moment" and still sounds like absolutely unbearable garbage that isn't worthy of the term "music." Yeah, maybe you are right... but again this is just the view of listener... Besides Vangelis' famous synth-orchestral pieces... he likes to make very abstract music all the time in his studio. Just listen the albums Beauborg and Invisible Connection and you have the idea. I liked pretty much Invisible Connection although there are huge amount of people saying it's totally rubbish and unlistenable!!! don't think music is necessarily about capturing "the truth of the moment." Music is first about sounding good and appealing to your audience, and if you want to talk about eliciting an emotional response from your audience based on capturing a moment or emotion I'd say there's no reason to exclude analytical thinking from the creation of your song For a standpoint of movie Scores, it is really about capturing "the truth of the moment."! Music is first about sounding good and appealing to your audience? I think that's terrible method... I feel that just trying to appeal for the audience may not be the correct way... then you are making music just for fashion and for things that are not great. If you make movie score just to appeal audience, then it will be very terrible because then you are not making the music for the movie! I always value the truly original concepts and the own ways of doing things. The originality is very important thing. I would compare this for example... director David Lynch. I doubt he did his mind-bending movies just to appeal audience! Vangelis said He never read the script of the movies when he decided which he's going to compose. He said he never think about how succesfull the movie will be and the movies he compose usually do not have the recipe of succesful movie at all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnalogGuy Posted February 6, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 I plan my songs out before recording and even more so before playing live, does that make me an "impure" musician? I wonder if Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Dvorak, Brahm, Schubert and others would agree that "thought cannot be a tool of creation"... I wonder how many symphonies would have been created by improv? Having said that, there's some real good improvisational stuff especially in the world of synth-oriented music, but there's also a ton of garbage, especially by people playing "real instruments". Anyone ever heard some of Pat Metheny's improv CDs? Pure unadultered crap from an otherwise genius musician. And don't even get me started on Phish and Grateful Dead... as I said... it's all about the composer itself... This is the way how Vangelis can make music... if you feel you like to make and read notes and being able to do better music in that way, then please continue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnalogGuy Posted February 6, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 Uh, Dude isn't that jazz?- you know being self indulgent, masturbating with your instrument and hoping everybody else will think your cool? LOL. You must be joking!!! With all of my respect, Are you seriously trying to insult me? First of all, honestly, I hate Jazz... and second, I never think about what others are thinking about me. I hate the way of just trying to appeal audience because the result is usually that the music wouldn't then appeal really everyone and if I would make music just for audience, I wouldn't be ever happy doing songs that I myself dislike! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members electrobaby Posted February 6, 2009 Members Share Posted February 6, 2009 there's a lot of improv out there that "captures the truth of the moment" and still sounds like absolutely unbearable garbage that isn't worthy of the term "music." is this a case of improvising or just a case of bad music or your taste in music?I mean in my opinion the gross majority of hip hop and electronic music is "unbearable garbage that isn't worthy of the term "music." Music is first about sounding good and appealing to your audience ...its first about appealing to yourself...you have to love what your doing if you expect the audience to love it. Im sure everyone on this forum plays alone (as well as gigs) daily or weekly...so when we are playing alone we are appealing to ourselves. and if you want to talk about eliciting an emotional response from your audience based on capturing a moment or emotion I'd say there's no reason to exclude analytical thinking from the creation of your song. I agree...both improv and the written note are valid as much as the other...I myself appreciate (and play) elements of both....although I do tend to favor improv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AnalogGuy Posted February 7, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2009 is this a case of improvising or just a case of bad music or your taste in music? I mean in my opinion the gross majority of hip hop and electronic music is "unbearable garbage that isn't worthy of the term "music." You stolen my words As I mentioned earlier the importance of originality... how original is the music of mass-producted??? So cheap techno and trance where the drums is all about "boom boom". And also the loop machines used in hip hop and in other electronic music... it's really unbearable garbage... listening same stuff all over and over again... oh wait... the DJ changed the volume of instruments, he muted drums... wow... how much you are making music with it? Are you making music or just repeating yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AfroRouge Posted February 7, 2009 Members Share Posted February 7, 2009 You know, there are vast traditions of music that are highly repetitive that have existed from long before electronic sequencers were even dreamt of. It's fine that you don't like electronic music, but your attitude toward it is disrespectful and frankly, ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members marcher5877 Posted February 7, 2009 Members Share Posted February 7, 2009 The phrase "improvising instantly" will be sent directly to the Dept. of Redundancy Dept. Improvising is a skill that can be taught and learned and there are some people who have spent more effort learning how to do it. Its a skill just like composing or writting music or sweep picking. Like all things in music and in life, the more you practice at it, the better you get. Your opinon that all techno and electronic music is unbearable garbage is not shared by everyone. You should check out some artist that improvise in a techno/hip hop setting. There are a lot of bands that are doing this today, Soundtribe Sector9, Pnemio Trio, Gilla...the list goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Karma1 Posted February 7, 2009 Members Share Posted February 7, 2009 I play in a few different bands and one of them, SpiritMoves (www.spiritmovesmusic.com) is totally improvised music. I play electric guitar, midi guitar, and synthesizer. Other instrumentation includes acoustic guitar, keys, flute, percussion, ambient female vocals, and cello. We never know what we are going to play till someone starts playing and everyone else just finds their place in that. It's very magical how it all comes together. It's quite different from other bands I play in where we rehearse endlessly to get as tight as possible. The only time I was nervous about improvising was when we did a live radio concert on the air of KPFA in Berkeley. Knowing that thousands of people were listening to music being created on the spot was a bit scary - but it went fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members setAI Posted February 7, 2009 Members Share Posted February 7, 2009 to be an artist is to be self-indulgent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members davidplasti-k Posted February 7, 2009 Members Share Posted February 7, 2009 I never considered myself a good improviser. I like to work an idea a lot until I am completely happy. But I also believe that most "improvisers" really don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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