The Great Analog Dump, Round 2

[Gribs]

I always expected that you look like your avatar in R/L

 

Actually I remember seeing the movie that had that brain alien thing. Didn't it have some sort of mind control ray (edit - I mean the alien not the movie)?

 

Anyway, I was alive in the old analog days and can remember seeing Mini Moogs, Arp Odyssey's, and even a Polymoog in the keyboard section of House of Guitars in Rochester, NY (where I grew up) but I was into guitar only at that time. So I have nothing vintage except my 70's era upright piano. However I do understand drool's post about their being nothing like interacting with and patching an analog modular as it is playing. I feel like I go into this weird trance-like state where it is just me and the machine making a noise - really weird actually now that I think about it. I am not really sure that I would call it making music, but it is definitely making some sort of noise... creation... thing... or something like that.

[droolmaster0]

Well, it's that old debate again, but if the intent is to make music, then it is. It might be lousy or noisy, it may lack those elements that some people insist music must have, and it may be more fun than most music is to make, but of course it's music.

[GuyaGuy]

I've long heard about how in the mid to late 80s, everyone started dumping their analog gear and electro-mechanical keyboards for sleek, slim, digital synths. Everything about them seemed better, and people who held on to the vintage got some incredible deals out of it. While analogs seemed to make a comeback at the turn of millenium or so, does anyone else feel like the "Great Analog Dump" will return as people look for all-softsynth rigs to replace hardware and live performance setups become more reliable and affordable? I've been hearing lots of people talking about going all soft on us (sorry, had to.) But also seeing lots of "new gear" being soft synths as well. Does anyone else feel like this is a possibility? Anyone greatly prefer soft to hardware? Does this mean I'll start seeing MiniMoogs for $50 at my local pawn?

 

Take a look at how few analog synths were made in the 90s.

Now look how many analog synth makers there are.

 

There might be another Great Analog Dump sometime...but it will probably be via SysEx.

[ChristianRock]

There might be another Great Analog Dump sometime...but it will probably be via SysEx.

 

[evildragon]

Installed OP-X, tried it, uninstalled it. I thought it would save me time and hassle with the real thing, but soundwise, the softie is like... miles apart from the real thing: http://www.gearslutz.com/board/electronic-music-instruments-electronic-music-production/409933-oberheim-ob8-vs-obx-2.html#post5560666

 

 

Used OP-X-Pro-II? Totally different ball game from basic OP-X.

 

As you might have known Peter (the maker of OP-X Pro) has an OB-X Rev. 2 himself, so I guess he models it according to what he owns. And no two analogs sound exactly the same, right? OP-X-Pro-II to my ears is much much better than original OP-X (which was good in its own regard), but what the guy did in the update is pretty darn awesome for a modern-day softsynth. Well, at least IMHO. YMMV.

 

[droolmaster0]

Being the cantankerous, many times banned, deformed psychotic that I am, I admit that I just laugh at claims that models of classic synth are anywhere near the originals. There are a number of issues. One is, of course, that the notion of what constitutes a difference, let alone a dramatic one, is contextual. Friends of mine (Well, yes, even though I keep them captive in my closet, I still call them friends) wouldn't recognize any difference. Then there are the kinds of tests that people will commonly post, triumphantly. 'Here - can you tell the difference, in this sound that I programmed myself on the original and the model - listen to this static sound, or this very rigidly defined filter sweep, etc'....or - 'I can't tell the difference in the mix'

 

Well, I like to be inspired by the sounds that come out of my instruments. To my ears, and mind, there is a rather large difference between the sonic spectrum between some of these instruments as it changes in time, not accompanied by other instruments that cloud the picture. I actually quite like some software synths - but not because they are so great at emulating analog synths. If you think about it - the ultimate in an emulation is to nail the original 100%. So, obviously, it will fall short by some amount - I think that it becomes more and more noticeable when you play the instrument yourself, when you subject it to changes (especially dramatic ones) in time. I also think that the differences become less noticeable to you (I suspect that this might be pinned down to some neurological thing) when someone else is playing the sound, and you hear it on a recording.

 

On the other hand - if you really like a software emulation of an analog synth as much as the real thing, and you don't mind the software interface, then it's silly for you to spend the money. But on the third hand - software obsolescence winds up being a problem also, unless you like keeping lots of computers around.

 

For me the absolute best solution is modern, analog modular equipment....and it's only getting better.

[kvmoore]

IMHO I think the great analog dump is a thing of the past and it'll never happen again, just like the big 3 American car companies will never make cars the same way they made them (now regarded as classics) back in the early 70's and prior.

 

However, I do think we are in a "digital dump" era right now!!! Think about it. As software is taking over, older hardware VAs can be had dirt cheap on ebay right now. This especially holds true for the older rackmount hardware studio samplers that costed thousands of dollars just a few years ago. They can now be had for about $300 or $400 now.

 

With that said, I think the day will come when the digital hardware dump will be over, software will completely take over, and people will regard these older digital hardware pieces as classics just like they do today with the analogs of 30 years ago. You see, software taxes the CPU and system resources and puts a strain on the computer. You have to worry about it all of the time. Computers crash and get viruses. Then you have to worry about OS compatibility issues with older software, drivers, and so on.....blah, blah, blah. Yet, people still think doing everything inside the computer is still more efficent and convenient than using a bunch of external equipment. I think all of this will still hold true in the future and some people will begin to look back at the older hardware synths and samplers and say to their kids 20 years from now:

 

 

"I remember back in the day when we actually used REAL hardware samplers and REAL digital as well as analog synths to make music!!!" The whole studio was filled with electronic equipment (think 1950's mainframe computer here). The synths came in a sleek casing with plenty of knobs, buttons, blinking lights, and a nice little LCD screen. It was a total hands on experience and you didn't have to worry about viruses or CPU load. The outputs were warm, beefy, and running to an ACTUAL mixing board, not harsh like the computer software and sound card. No..., these devices had dedicated converters and DSP chips and were purpose built to one job and do it well. Also, they are as real a musical instrument as a guitar or drumset. I think you should try it because it'll be a great experience for you. You know what, for Christmas this year, I'm gonna buy you some nice vintage digital gear. I just saw this Access Virus C keyboard for $4000 in mint condition and this nice E-MU E4XT Ultra (Wow, those sweet juicy converters on the outputs) for $6000 mint on ebay last night. How about those for starters? You see to appreciate classic digital, you have to own it!!!!!"

 

Yeah, you'll be telling your kids that in 20 years. Hahahaha. But think about it seriously. It's already starting to happen with the older samplers such as the Akai MPC 60 and 3000, the E-MU SP1200, and Ensoniq ASR-10, especially among the hip-hop community. The prices for those machines command on the used market today are pretty hefty. I mean you can spend as much as $1800 for an SP1200 that only has 12 seconds of sampling ram, but the sound it produces is unmatched. And the Waldorf Qs are still expensive and will probably continue to be.

 

Oh yeah and the vintage analogs we know of today (Minimoog model D, Prophet 5, CS80, etc.....) will be retired from most studios and found mostly in collector home archives or museums. Repair parts will have disappeared long ago and any synth found still in working condition will be worth well over 10 grand. The new vintage analog classics will be the ones you see on the market today (Prophet 8, Minimog Voyager, MadBeth, etc.....).

 

Anyway, that's my prediction. It may or may not happen. It'll be fun to just watch, wait, and see. Hahahaha.

[The Hamburglar]

 

Well, I like to be inspired by the sounds that come out of my instruments.

 

This is the crux. If you're inspired by the digital recreation as much as the analog one, and not in actuality just lying to yourself with pocketbook in the back of your mind, then good for you. I'm not.

[keybdwizrd]

When I look at ALL of the sounds that can be made using all of my instruments - hardware and software, analog and digital - I see that analog synthesizers are capable of producing but a teeny tiny subset of the entire soundscape. They are but a couple of shades in my box of paints.

 

In the years and decades ahead, I imagine that the general popularity of analog synthesizers will be driven by how much people want to play (and hear) the particular types of sounds made by those instruments.

 

That being said, as the years and decades pass, I believe the price of vintage analog instruments will only go up. As others have said, there are only a limited number in existence, and many of those will be purchased by collectors and/or fall into disrepair. Certain people are attracted to them the way that others are to vintage Mustangs, or old time radios. Other than for a few twinges of nostalgia, they hold no interest for me.

 

The good news is that there are modern companies making new analog synthesizers. Additionally, those trendy analog sounds are also available at very affordable prices via the plethora of software emulations. As maligned as software emulations may be by purists, I think zillions of software instruments are sold, and 99.9% of listeners couldn't tell the difference between hardware and software anyway (let alone vintage hardware). But people should strive to use whatever inspires them.

 

Looking forward, I certainly wouldn't want to be in the rompler/workstation business. That future looks to me like keyboard controllers connected to 17" iPads with 1 TB sound libraries, running software that none of us can even dream of yet.

[McHale]

 

That being said, as the years and decades pass, I believe the price of vintage analog instruments will only go up.

 

 

I think only for a limited time though (like the McRib sandwich or Pepsi Throwback). Right now, the vintage analogs WORK. But as time passes, less and less will be operational (Korg PolySix's notorious battery issue comes to mind) and people will be buying vintage gear for parts to repair their own failing gear. Eventually, those will also fail and there will be no more parts. Value=worthless. At that point, new analog synths are just another synth with another type of synthesis. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing like analog. Even the newer stuff can make the hair on the back of my neck stand out.

 

But software synths have come a LONG way in the past few years and the analog stuff is getting better and better. Can someone with a Prophet 5 tell the difference between their synth and NI's Pro-53? Yah, probably. But it's all about the sound you are going for, not mimicking the sound of vintage gear. I have been playing with soft synths pretty heavily the past couple weeks and I see both sides of the argument. Does it really kinda sorta sound like the vintage gear is's supposed to? Yah. Does it sound truly analog? Barely, if at all It's stereo. It's pretty. It's not aggressive.

 

But give it time. VA's and soft synths are already pretty convincing. It will only get better.

[The Hamburglar]

I haven't heard an all digital synth I could play on stage in my two piece band with a drummer. I just don't think they stand up as dynamic and powerful enough to stand alone, like a guitar.

[gregwar]

i think its possible. maybe what could more likely be happening is that some of these classic analog synths are commanding a higher price than they have in 25 years. people could be offloading them because they fear a price drop. i'd love to sit around and perform vintage synth market psychoanalysis but really this seems to matter less and less to me personally.

 

the presets on some of those gerrs like salsa or rock beats, 'strings', brass, etc i think were honest attempts to emulate those sounds with the technology of the day. its ironic that people fell in love with analog synthesis in and of itself and that there's a resurgence. really, tho, it can only be sweet for so long until its all sour grapes like $10 000 jupters, "museum" condition exterior that doesn't even get switched on, etc.

 

once this happens the kids will just move on to whatever isn't fashionable. cheap stuff like ni massive (dubstep), garritan personal orchestra for my friends in composition at university, alicia's keys for broke pianists like me, etc. the same thing happened with 'rare groove' and sampling. certain records like enter the dragon reached cult status and were $100+

 

then i didn't hear rare groove music anymore (rest in peace, j dilla). maybe now with guys like kanye and whatnot sampling will return like someone mentioned above. primitive samplers are getting pricey ? ? i think the conditions that created the analog dump don't exist now and they prolly couldn't reemerge. but at a certain point it doesn't matter. now all i want is for the technology to get out of the way so i can make music.

[droolmaster0]

So, even if they sound different, they are the same sounds? That's a neat linguistic trick.

 

It's certainly true though - if you're primary reason for making music is to impress people with your technical chops, then the joys of real analog synths really don't make much difference. It's true that most listeners won't discern a difference, especially if they are primarily concerned with melody, harmony, and oohing at how fast your fingers move.

 

 

When I look at ALL of the sounds that can be made using all of my instruments - hardware and software, analog and digital - I see that analog synthesizers are capable of producing but a teeny tiny subset of the entire soundscape. They are but a couple of shades in my box of paints. In the years and decades ahead, I imagine that the general popularity of analog synthesizers will be driven by how much people want to play (and hear) the particular types of sounds made by those instruments. That being said, as the years and decades pass, I believe the price of vintage analog instruments will only go up. As others have said, there are only a limited number in existence, and many of those will be purchased by collectors and/or fall into disrepair. Certain people are attracted to them the way that others are to vintage Mustangs, or old time radios. Other than for a few twinges of nostalgia, they hold no interest for me. The good news is that there are modern companies making new analog synthesizers. Additionally, those trendy analog sounds are also available at very affordable prices via the plethora of software emulations. As maligned as software emulations may be by purists, I think zillions of software instruments are sold, and 99.9% of listeners couldn't tell the difference between hardware and software anyway (let alone vintage hardware). But people should strive to use whatever inspires them. Looking forward, I certainly wouldn't want to be in the rompler/workstation business. That future looks to me like keyboard controllers connected to 17" iPads with 1 TB sound libraries, running software that none of us can even dream of yet.

 

[McHale]

What is funny, is when synths first came out, they'd have killed to have them sound like our gear today and here we are today, trying to get gear that sounds like the gear back then.

 

That's why I don't worry about how "analog" it sounds.

[droolmaster0]

Well, though, none of this has anything at all to do with what people back then wanted. It all comes down to - what are YOU looking for. Do you prefer the vintage sound, and how important is it to you. Do you prefer more flexibility over the ultimate in that vintage sound? Etc. I'm not into vintage synths. If I really wanted to spend a lot on the ultimate analog polysynth, I'd sell my spleen and buy a sunsyn. But I personally think that current analog monosynths are simply fantastic - one can buy into a continuum of modularity depending on what one is interested in. But I guess I agree with one aspect of what you're saying - I think that there are a number of modern products, which if released back 'in the day' would be classics - there is the sunsyn, and stuff like the cwejman s1m2, the vostok (which I really like), the tinysizer, the xs, and others which I'm too lazy to challenge my brain to resurrect. Some of the nostalgia is music nostalgia - if you want to make music which sounds like the music from a certain era, you come closer more easily with the tools from that era.

[Crawling Wind]

Synthesizers were always about the future. Now most of them are about the past. Let's keep going forwards, folks!

 

What is funny, is when synths first came out, they'd have killed to have them sound like our gear today and here we are today, trying to get gear that sounds like the gear back then. That's why I don't worry about how "analog" it sounds.

[ChristianRock]

Just so everybody knows, The Great Round Analog Dumpster is now located right next to my front door. Please dump all your analog synths in there.

 

Thanks!

 

[evildragon]

 

 

Hahahah, good one, CR!

[McHale]

sounds good. What's your address CR? And what room is your good stuff in? Not that those are related, just curious.

 

[ChristianRock]

sounds good. What's your address CR? And what room is your good stuff in? Not that those are related, just curious.

 

All I got is cheap stuff, I'm probably better off with the insurance money So sure, all are invited to come by!

[Chando]

 

But give it time. VA's and soft synths are already pretty convincing. It will only get better.

 

 

Convincing in certain contexts... it's not too convincing many others.

[Chando]

 

What is funny, is when synths first came out, they'd have killed to have them sound like our gear today and here we are today, trying to get gear that sounds like the gear back then.

 

 

Yet bands like 10cc/Godley & Creme and Alphaville did. Those guys were so amazing at processing... I think it influenced the future of analog, samplers and effects after...

[GuyaGuy]

Synthesizers were always about the future. Now most of them are about the past. Let's keep going forwards, folks!

 

Yeah, I can see the attraction of a VST that sounds 100% authentic. But analog synths already sound 100% authentic so it does seem redundant to try to recreate something that already exists and is, for the most part, accessible.

 

But I guess that's what man does with a cool new technology--tries to recreate, whether it's recreating the visible world with oil paints or pixels or recreating the sonic properties of analog or acoustic instruments.

[soundwave106]

 

But I guess I agree with one aspect of what you're saying - I think that there are a number of modern products, which if released back 'in the day' would be classics - there is the sunsyn, and stuff like the cwejman s1m2, the vostok (which I really like), the tinysizer, the xs, and others which I'm too lazy to challenge my brain to resurrect.

 

 

What do you see in bands today? Laptops and plugins, sure. Some VAs like the much maligned Microkorg, yeah. Do you see stuff like the new Moogs, and the DSI instruments or Alesis Andromeda? Yeah, sometimes. Occasionally, a boutique like a Future Retro or Jomox or Studio Electronics or whatnot will sneak in. Maybe even one of the new modulars, on occasion.

 

Do you see vintage analogs? Pretty rarely, maybe a Pro One or MS20 but never a Prophet 5 or a Jupiter 8.

 

Lots of the vintage market is now heavily collector, beyond the scope of the working musician, IMHO.

[GuyaGuy]

 

What do you see in bands today? Laptops and plugins, sure. Some VAs like the much maligned Microkorg, yeah. Do you see stuff like the new Moogs, and the DSI instruments or Alesis Andromeda? Yeah, sometimes. Occasionally, a boutique like a Future Retro or Jomox or Studio Electronics or whatnot will sneak in. Maybe even one of the new modulars, on occasion. Do you see vintage analogs? Pretty rarely, maybe a Pro One or MS20 but never a Prophet 5 or a Jupiter 8. Lots of the vintage market is now heavily collector, beyond the scope of the working musician, IMHO.

 

 

I'm sure there is some collecting but many players might have a Prophet 5 in the studio but prefer taking out other synths for gigs to protect the expensive synth, have something a bit more reliable, and have something more compact.