Members Sarricola_Sauce Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 New gigging key player here. I'm a guitar player and my band does a lot of funk, dance and disco so we bought a used Alesis qs8 to add to our arsenal and I've had lots of fun turning into a C- grade key player over the last few months. I'm doing a lot of 'jobber' type key lines. Horn lines, pads, a couple piano driven tunes but nothing too chop heavy. We often have sound provided but we still bring our own PA rig to a few clubs. We use passive mains, a pair of passive subs and a decent yamaha board with just enough channels to cover guitars, bass, 3 drum mics, four vocal mics, one channel for the electric drum kit and one for the the keyboards. Both the e-drums and the keys are running mono. Should i be running my board through a DI box. The last gig I just ran a single quarter inch from the left/mono side straight to the board. Should I throw a DI box in front of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members McHale Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Yes if running keys (or anything with line outs) into a mixer, buy yourself a good passive DI box. Check out the Radial ProD2. It's You may not run stereo now but for a couple bucks more you'll have the ability if and when you decide to. You can't beat the performance to price ratio. This DI is also better than most DI boxes sound guys will offer you if they run sound for you. http://www.radialeng.com/di-prodi-prod2.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sarricola_Sauce Posted April 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Yes if running keys (or anything with line outs) into a mixer, buy yourself a good passive DI box. Check out the Radial ProD2. It's You may not run stereo now but for a couple bucks more you'll have the ability if and when you decide to. You can't beat the performance to price ratio. This DI is also better than most DI boxes sound guys will offer you if they run sound for you. http://www.radialeng.com/di-prodi-prod2.htm Perfect, Thank you so much. I just assumed most boards ready to go straight to the board. I still have a lot to learn. Keys have been so fun. I'm a guitar teacher and have done broadway work with guitar, drums and mando but I'm always the 'young kid' on the big gigs cuz I can't cover key parts. I'm prolly a few years away from being able to really 'cook' but the pressure of having gig in my cover band has been great motivation. I'll scoop a cheapo DI box from work for the time being and I'll have to check into whether we can can get that box you mentions from our distro at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orangefunk Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 my take is a bit different... it all depends on how long your cables are going to be from the keys to the mixer. I've rarely needed to use a DI except at larger concert venues... but it won't do any harm to run it through a DI box anyway... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stillearning Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 I agree that you may not need a DI. If you mix yourselves from stage or very near stage, as is often typical in smaller clubs, and you've got 'line in' channels on your mixer, I don't see a need for a DI. If you're being mixed from FOH, with longer cable runs, use DI's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members McHale Posted April 7, 2011 Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 DI's are for more than just long runs. It brings line level down to mic level (can be critical to a successful mix) as well as isolates ground loops. Start at this thread: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?633694-What-does-a-DI-box-Really-DO! Then read some of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DI_unit Don't forget, you can only control your sound at the instrument. The output on is subject to the house PA. I've played clubs where they only had mic ins. Without a DI, I couldn't have played through their PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted April 8, 2011 Members Share Posted April 8, 2011 DI's are for more than just long runs. It brings line level down to mic level (can be critical to a successful mix) as well as isolates ground loops. Start at this thread: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?633694-What-does-a-DI-box-Really-DO! Then read some of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DI_unit Don't forget, you can only control your sound at the instrument. The output on is subject to the house PA. I've played clubs where they only had mic ins. Without a DI, I couldn't have played through their PA. Ok, what about if I use a little submixer for my stage rig - two QSC K10's or K12's, depending on size of band/venue - I should still put a DI between the submixer and the FOH mixer, right? But then how do I connect submixer to DI box - using TRS cables, with 1/4" male plugs on either end? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members McHale Posted April 8, 2011 Members Share Posted April 8, 2011 I run my gear into a mixer, then from the mixer to a stereo DI to the main board. Everything is 1/4" until it leaves the DI which is an XLR connection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted April 8, 2011 Members Share Posted April 8, 2011 I run my gear into a mixer, then from the mixer to a stereo DI to the main board. Everything is 1/4" until it leaves the DI which is an XLR connection Ok McHale - when you say "everything" is 1/4" 'til it leaves the DI as XLR, you mean: 1/4" from keys to mixer - regular instrument cables1/4" from mixer to DI - this is the connection/cable I'm asking about: are you using TRS/balanced cables L/R for this or just regular instr. cables? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stillearning Posted April 8, 2011 Members Share Posted April 8, 2011 Here's my understanding. I play in several bands, in some I use multiple keys and submix. These gigs are usually at larger venues and outdoor festivals. My sub-mixer outs are TRS balanced, and at most venues, I can run directly into the snake to the FOH mixer with balanced, line level signals and no issues. Occasionally, there is a hum problem and usually it can be solved with simple XLR barrel connectors with a ground lift switch. If you're sending balanced signals into balanced inputs, and everything is of the proper level and impedance, theoretically there really isn't a need for DI. But it's a good idea to have a few in your kit, as they are sort of swiss army knives to solve signal mis-match problems. Once in a while I have to put DI's in line when a simple ground lift doesn't solve it. In the bar band I play in, I run the sound from a mixer on stage, and I plug my 1/4 inch unbalanced, stereo keys output directly into the stereo line-level inputs on a Mackie 16 channel mixer, with no noise or problems of any sort. Never had a need for a DI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dumeril7 Posted April 8, 2011 Members Share Posted April 8, 2011 In the bar band I play in, I run the sound from a mixer on stage, and I plug my 1/4 inch unbalanced, stereo keys output directly into the stereo line-level inputs on a Mackie 16 channel mixer, with no noise or problems of any sort. Never had a need for a DI. I've been using a similar arrangement, except I use the XLR main outs on my Mackie submixer to feed the FOH system. There is a +4/mic switch on the mixer to change the level of these outputs and I set that depending on what the soundman wants to work with. (BTW, I use the "Control Room" output for my personal monitors so that I can control their volume independently of what I'm feeding FOH.) So far, I haven't had any ground loop problems doing this. I'd been wondering if that was because the Mackie main outputs are transformer isolated (ala a direct box). Does anybody know if that is or is not the case? D7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members McHale Posted April 8, 2011 Members Share Posted April 8, 2011 are you using TRS/balanced cables L/R for this or just regular instr. cables? regular instrument cables. My mixer sends a balanced output and I've tested with and without DI's at many venues (clubs, outdoor festivals, arenas) and it makes a difference... At least my Radial JDI does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted April 9, 2011 Members Share Posted April 9, 2011 regular instrument cables. My mixer sends a balanced output and I've tested with and without DI's at many venues (clubs, outdoor festivals, arenas) and it makes a difference... At least my Radial JDI does. Ok - but "instrument cables" are not balanced - even though you're running them from a Balanced output (your keys mixer's Main Outs). Have you ever tried running balanced cables straight from your mixer, up to the FOH mixer, w/out the DI in between?? Or is that what you're saying you have done doesn't sound as good as with the DI in the line? Also, I wonder if you had balanced cables running from you mixer to the DI, would it sound even better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members McHale Posted April 9, 2011 Members Share Posted April 9, 2011 My mixer is balanced and I ran balanced cables to the DI as well as tried regular 1/4" cables between the mixer and DI. Made no difference as far as I could tell from DI out so I use instrument cables. I have NOT tried running balanced cables from my mixer to the FOH mixer but theoretically that should work from a line level standpoint. Many of the keyboard players I've seen don't use mixers with balanced outs. Also, I've played many a venue where they simply hand me a pair of XLR cables and walk away. Without a DI, I'd be screwed regardless... For how little DI's cost I don't see the reason to NOT own one, especially a good one. Here's a good article on whether DI's are needed for keyboards: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/oct09/articles/qa1009_3.htm Definitely a recommended read... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stillearning Posted April 9, 2011 Members Share Posted April 9, 2011 My mixer is balanced... I've played many a venue where they simply hand me a pair of XLR cables and walk away. Without a DI, I'd be screwed regardless...For how little DI's cost I don't see the reason to NOT own one, especially a good one. The TRS balanced output of a mixer can easily be connected to XLR balanced. But I agree that it's a great idea to have a DI or two in your kit bag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted April 9, 2011 Members Share Posted April 9, 2011 If you are mixing from stage you don't need a DI. Just plug the keyboard in- it's no different than if you had your own keyboard mixer on stage. I have a submixer and send a monitor send to the board and have never had a problem. On bigger gigs where the board is out front, the soundman provides a DI and I plug that same 1/4" send into the DI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members McHale Posted April 9, 2011 Members Share Posted April 9, 2011 If you are mixing from stage you don't need a DI. Just plug the keyboard in- it's no different than if you had your own keyboard mixer on stage. I have a submixer and send a monitor send to the board and have never had a problem. On bigger gigs where the board is out front, the soundman provides a DI and I plug that same 1/4" send into the DI. I would never depend on the sound man to provide one... I bought my own, a RADIAL JDI Duplex because sound guys tend to have crappy ones, sometimes give two different mono DI's (which can color the sound differently) or don't know how to use them properly. I have also played a couple shows where they DIDN'T have a DI for me to use. Woooops... I only use my own, I have control of it's config and they can do what they want with the signal after that. But like I said, don't take my word for it, read the SOS article on why owning/using a DI is a good idea for keyboard players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dan88z Posted April 9, 2011 Members Share Posted April 9, 2011 I can understand the need to carry a DI in case you need it based on the scenarios you gave. For the OP, running a cable from a keyboard to a mixer on stage is no different than running a cable from a keyboard to a dedicated keyboard mixer, hence, no need for a DI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members McHale Posted April 9, 2011 Members Share Posted April 9, 2011 I can understand the need to carry a DI in case you need it based on the scenarios you gave. For the OP, running a cable from a keyboard to a mixer on stage is no different than running a cable from a keyboard to a dedicated keyboard mixer, hence, no need for a DI. We sometimes provide our own PA and I use one in a live situation mainly to deal with ground loops and potential voltage issues. We did test with/without through our PA and we determined that using the DI was preferred but I don't remember if it was because the volume was too high or too low and the DI corrected it. After all the sound issues I experienced before I provided my own, I'm just in the habit of using my DI all the time. The fewer potential sound issues I can take away from lazy or inexperienced sound guys the better. And believe me, there are PLENTY of sound guys who don't have a clue what they're doing... especially with keyboards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members theGman Posted April 9, 2011 Members Share Posted April 9, 2011 Also use a Radial DI all the time. No issues, ever. Just plug into me, you soundman, and go away! Sure makes life simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted April 10, 2011 Members Share Posted April 10, 2011 I run with them somtimes and without them. dont see much of a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DJ RAZZ Posted April 10, 2011 Members Share Posted April 10, 2011 Good DI's are crucial in all circumstances. Even balanced outputs of sub mixers can be noisy and thin. DI's balance impedance, fix grounding and phasing, transform and warm the sound. The Radial JDI is the best out there for the money. I sold mine and want it back so bad. My QSC has balanced outs and I still wish I had my Radial. Plus you can mix your backline/monitor at a separate volume by using a mixer and DI first sending the XLR to FOH or a snake and the thru to the amp or speaker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted April 10, 2011 Members Share Posted April 10, 2011 I would never depend on the sound man to provide one... I bought my own, a RADIAL JDI Duplex because sound guys tend to have crappy ones, sometimes give two different mono DI's (which can color the sound differently) or don't know how to use them properly. I have also played a couple shows where they DIDN'T have a DI for me to use. Woooops... I only use my own, I have control of it's config and they can do what they want with the signal after that. But like I said, don't take my word for it, read the SOS article on why owning/using a DI is a good idea for keyboard players. Wow - that Radial JDI Duplex looks good for stereo use but man, it's expensive - $350 bucks!! Also - there's so many buttons on that thing, I'd be concerned about making sure they're ALL in the right position each time, as your hand can accidentally push them in or out when setting up... Same thing I've found w/active spkr. cabinets (I have a pair of QSC K12's & also a pair of K10's in the last year and an almost 9 yr. old pair of JBL EON15 G2's which are still going but relegated to basement duty now ) - they sound great and are perfectly matched to their built-in amplifiers but you ALWAYS have to double check all the settings, switches and buttons on them when you're settting them up, either up on poles or down on the ground - as your hand can accidentally hit the switches or buttons by accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members McHale Posted April 10, 2011 Members Share Posted April 10, 2011 Wow - that Radial JDI Duplex looks good for stereo use but man, it's expensive - $350 bucks!! Also - there's so many buttons on that thing, I'd be concerned about making sure they're ALL in the right position each time, as your hand can accidentally push them in or out when setting up... Same thing I've found w/active spkr. cabinets (I have a pair of QSC K12's & also a pair of K10's) - they sound great and are perfectly matched to their built-in amplifiers but you ALWAYS have to double check all the settings, switches and buttons on them when you're settting them up, either up on poles or down on the ground - as your hand can accidentally hit the switches or buttons by accident. Nah, they're all pretty self explanatory. Every once in a while a button gets pushed when I toss it in the bag, but never the same button for both channels and you get in the habit of looking at it when you plug the cables in. If $350 isn't your thing, I'd go with the Radial ProD2. MUCH cheaper ($135 to $150) and just about as good - just doesn't contain the Jensen transformers and instead, JDI made their own. Don't forget, that Radial JDI Duplex is essentially 2 JDI's since it's stereo. Also, when you're playing to a large crowd with a professional sound crew, don't let a one time additional cost of $100 bucks kill your sound. Some DI's cost a LOT more than the Radial JDI's with no additional benefit. -Mc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DJ RAZZ Posted April 11, 2011 Members Share Posted April 11, 2011 Yes there is no replacement for Jenson technology. Go with something JDI. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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