Anyone make orchestral music?

[Mike Conway]

 

One critical point is that you have to be careful never to layer the same sample with itself at the same pitch. This can happen if you are playing in violin 1 and 2 parts on separate sequence tracks and the two parts alternate between playing in octaves, thirds and unisons. Identical samples in unison create flanging which kills your realism.

 

 

Exactly. This is why I used to make section layers of the same sound, but they mixed better when combined from different manufacturers, since the samples came from completely different sources. For instance, the OASYS brass used for that EXILE Main Title didn't sound that great, until I ported over some horn samples from the Yamaha A5000. I still play it all through the O, but the Yamaha sounds really helped give it depth.

 

 

 

If I had to put together a few currently available Romplers for orchestral work I would suggest a Roland Fantom XR with SRX04 string SRX06 orchestra and SRX10 brass cards combined with a MOTIF XS keyboard or rack. The Kurzweil PC3 also has some nice string and wind elements.

 

 

That's a good combo! I have the SRX04 Strings (great Tremolo), but I have yet to get the highly recommend SRX06 Orchestra. Someday, I'll get to it!

[Spleencage]

I disagree with the poster who says long flute notes don't sound real because they cant hold their breath for that long, most pro orchestra players can circular breath, and also parts are written for overlapping players to play the same note.

Also, string can and do sustain long notes and envelopes can be programmed to emulate any type of "taper", along with automated volume rides.

- Learn theory

- Learn line writing

- listen to a lot of orchestral music

- examine scores

- learn instrument ranges

- observe instrument spacing and placement

- observe dynamics, durations, attacks

- use only one reverb- on the master

- drop-2 and drop-3 voicings are very helpful

Of course there's a LOT more to it, but this is a good start.

 

p.s. dont you just hate Oasys strings!

[Cygnus64]

I disagree with the poster who says long flute notes don't sound real because they cant hold their breath for that long, most pro orchestra players can circular breath, and also parts are written for overlapping players to play the same note. Also, string can and do sustain long notes and envelopes can be programmed to emulate any type of "taper", along with automated volume rides.

 

No human being, whether playing winds or strings, can sustain in the way that your typical rompler does. The sound and the color will change.

 

A violin bow is heavy at the bottom and light at the top (tip). As you draw the bow, it WILL get softer. You can correct it by adding pressure, but when you do it will alter the sound. Sustain is not only about volume, it's about color. Any good player won't just hold a long note, they will change the color, the vibrato, the tone. Classical music is all about phrasing. Romplers are not.

 

Fader automation will indeed work. Personally I like editing audio better, but either way will work. The point is: on a long note, do something. When the strings hold a long note, chances are that something more interesting is happening in the orchestra. Therefore, we back off the pressure, which backs off the dynamics. It lets the interesting parts come through. Orchestras don't have mixers, so we have to mix it ourself, live, by using good musical sense and figuring out what has to come through.

 

I don't really like classical music that much, but I do love orchestral game music.

 

You probably DO like classical music and don't know it. Only a small portion of it was written by guys with wigs. Try to listen to composers like Holst, Ravel, Prokofiev. It's probably a lot more like orchestral game music than you think.

[evildragon]

Morrowind soundtrack!

 

Or any Blizzard game!

 

 

[Plink Floyd]

Morrowind soundtrack! Or any Blizzard game!

 

And Ren & Stimpy!

[Citizen Klaus]

Morrowind soundtrack! Or any Blizzard game!

 

Or Michael Hoenig's soundtracks for the Baldur's Gate games...

[AnalogGuy]

The best set of orchestral sounds I have heard is Roland SR-JV80-02 Orchestral expansion board. I use it with my Super JD-990.

 

It's incredible set although it uses only 8 mb samples (practically 14 mb because the samples are compressed). To my experience, even the best quality of samples usually does not sound necessary realistic. It's only about how the sounds are sampled and with how many multisamples and also the crystal clear sound quality could have opposite effect being too clear and then won't sit nicely on a mix. Honestly I bought it (cost 100 euros as used!) mainly because of awesome timpany sounds... those instruments can sound ridiculous even with more expensive synthesizers and romplers. But besides just timpanies, I surprised how many great sounding samples there are... I got incredibly realistic string sounds, harp, brasses, bass drums, even big cymbals like chinese "tam tam" and gongs... those are very stunning. There are even very stunning choir sounds too! This orchestral expansion was one of those rare big and very positive surprises of buying gear I ever had. I'm not going to sell this away EVER!

 

See the sound examples here, a pity there are only few percussions examples:

 

http://www.synthmania.com/sr-jv80-02.htm

[Paolo Di Nicolantonio]

 

The best set of orchestral sounds I have heard is Roland SR-JV80-02 Orchestral expansion board. I use it with my Super JD-990. It's incredible set although it uses only 8 mb samples (practically 14 mb because the samples are compressed). To my experience, even the best quality of samples usually does not sound necessary realistic. It's only about how the sounds are sampled and with how many multisamples and also the crystal clear sound quality could have opposite effect being too clear and then won't sit nicely on a mix. Honestly I bought it (cost 100 euros as used!) mainly because of awesome timpany sounds... those instruments can sound ridiculous even with more expensive synthesizers and romplers. But besides just timpanies, I surprised how many great sounding samples there are... I got incredibly realistic string sounds, harp, brasses, bass drums, even big cymbals like chinese "tam tam" and gongs... those are very stunning. There are even very stunning choir sounds too! This orchestral expansion was one of those rare big and very positive surprises of buying gear I ever had. I'm not going to sell this away EVER! See the sound examples here, a pity there are only few percussions examples: http://www.synthmania.com/sr-jv80-02.htm

 

 

I also am very fond of that expansion board, but the sample library it comes from is even better. The samples are larger. Case in point, the string orchestra is fab imo.

 

However, our resident in-house orchestral guru Cygnus prefers the Cakewalk samples if I recall correctly, and I highly value his opinion!

[Cygnus64]

I also am very fond of that expansion board, but the sample library it comes from is even better. The samples are larger. Case in point, the string orchestra is fab imo. However, our resident in-house orchestral guru Cygnus prefers the Cakewalk samples if I recall correctly , and I highly value his opinion!

 

Thanks Paolo! Indeed, I like the Cakewalk samples a lot. One reason is that they "blossom": on long notes, string players start with a small amount of vibrato and add more as the note unfolds, they also get louder. The Cakewalk samples do that.

 

I have the Roland orchestral card too. I like the shorter samples with a fast attack like percussion. The strings have a pleasing sound, I just don't find them very realistic. The sample libraries really have an advantage in that they have gigs of waveforms, not megs. It really matters with long notes.

 

Strings are all about attack, decay, and vibrato. They have to be sampled with vibrato or else it doesnt sound natural. the attack on a long note is more of a "swell". Again, it's not only volume but it's a change in color. The better sample sets have that.

[evildragon]

Which Cakewalk samples?

 

 

Go to Garritan.com and go to the "education" tab and select online orchestration course. Excellent resource.

 

There is also Vienna Academy, a very resourceful site:

 

http://vsl.co.at/en/70/149/152/48.vsl

[workstation M.I]

 

---

Stabby wrote:

 

Thank you so much! That clarifies a lot.

 

 

 

Just a few things I don't get:

 

 

 

Violin 1 is usually a melody instrument. Violin 2 harmonizes. Viola occupies the middle ground. Cello and bass are bottom feeders.

 

 

 

 

If I get this right, violin is soprano, viola alto and cello is tenor and bass off course is bass?

 

 

 

Also, I'm not sure what harmonizing means. What should I do with a string ensemble patch? Can I play violin 1 and 2 on the same patch?

 

 

 

Finally, I have a brass patch on my synth called BoneSection. What instrument does this section consist of?

---

I look upon the string ensemble patch as "one stop shopping" for the entire string section, initially. This particular practice saves time and tracks.

The left hand covers Basses and Cellos while the right hand covers Violins one and two and Violas. Use solo voices as needed on their own track so you can control the panning apart from the ensemble, even if it's in the SAME section! (Example, violin solo over violin ensemble would hold the same pan postion)

I give the "left hand" its own track, as I do with the "right hand" so that each section has it's own pan position.

Normally, the "experts" you write books about orchestration, would have you give EACH string instrument it's own track, for a total of 5 tracks. This is all fine and well, as long as you have the space to cover this.

However, I also mentioned saving time as well before. Minus the solo track(s) my initial track hit is only TWO -One for the left hand and one for the right.

Here's an example of something that is fairly "cut down", but still sounds as full as the "high track count method". Oh yeah, the following is strictly panned according to this guide ( which makes more sense to me, OVERALL than most other orchestral diagrams:

The Diagram:

https://smartsite.ucdavis.edu/access/content/group/59bdf0b4-ad07-473e-8050-fe67d7119d35/Music10/00Images/Instruments/orchestr.gif

My Example:

https://soundcloud.com/skyy38/imperial-motif

[workstation M.I]

 

---

Stabby wrote:

 

Mediterranean, thank you! That is very helpful. The orchestra doesn't necessary have to sound realistic though! I love those old rompler sounds. Something is very charming about them.

I would also add that perhaps some reading on composing would help. Knowledge is power.

 

Any recommendations? I'd like something very basic. I don't want to go very deep into the matter just yet (time and energy constraints).

---

Hans Zimmer scored "Driving Miss Daisy" all by his lonesome, with romplers and samplers! In 1989!

Most movie-goers couldn't tell the difference! ( Either that or they just didn't care..either way works for me!)

 

[workstation M.I]

---

Be careful of it.

As I said, strings are linear. Think linear, which means each part gets it's own staff, own part, own freedom. If you see a string orchestra, there will be 5 sections. All 5 will be doing different things. With one synth patch, there is a tendency to write chords. This isnt very effective string writing.

---

Beg to differ. Each section has it's own staff location, but that is where it ends. Bass and Cellos are covering the low octave end lines (and the occasional harmony), while Violins 1 and 2 and Violas WILL be doing "different things" because of the harmonic structure.

And just because each section gets it's own STAFF doesn't mean that ALL of them are playing the SAME NOTES! (Unless otherwise written) Chords ARE formed by the Violins and Violas, as they are by the brass. All of the above is clearly evident in the STAR WARS soundtrack-John Williams even gets the French Horns to sound off on a basic triad!

[workstation M.I]

---

Stabby wrote:

Thanks. I'm ready to start experimenting

 

By the way, is the picture of the string ranges in this topic correct?The cello, double bass and violin are presented as having a much bigger range than the link you posted.

---

The utter MAGIC of using the string ensemble patch, is that you really don't have to worry about "ranges" of separate instruments! The "left hand" and the "right hand" have already taken care of this little problem!

And, even if you DO go "out of range", you just might come up with yet another "instrument"!

[workstation M.I]

---

purveyor2 wrote:

Go to Garritan.com and go to the "education" tab and select online orchestration course. Excellent resource.

---

Ditto!

[workstation M.I]

 

---

evildragon wrote:

 

In my opinion, Roland synths have the best-sounding orchestral sounds you'll find.

 

If talking about older Roland romplers, then perhaps yes (and even then Korg had better strings). 

---

Korg Strings have ALWAYS been the "Synth Strings" of 80's and 90's hit songs.

My Casio WK-1350 JUST with the String Ensemble patch, makes Korg sound as "synthy" as it's always been.

[workstation M.I]

---

Stabby wrote:

Rules are meant to be broken. You can do all kinds of things. If the strings are in pop music, usually they are playing whole notes (pads) in the background. If it's classical, the violin 1 will usually have the melody. I would listen to a bunch of classical stuff to get ideas.

But the best way to break the rules is to know them first

I am listening to lots of orchestral music at the moment, but nothing classic. I don't really like classical music that much, but I do love orchestral game music. Maybe a couple of tips for listening better? I can't make out the violins from the viola and violin I from violin II quite yet. They sound very much alike. The cello however stands out.

---

You listen to this, for starters:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEEOcqbeclg

[workstation M.I]

 

---

Spleencage wrote:

 

I disagree with the poster who says long flute notes don't sound real because they cant hold their breath for that long, most pro orchestra players can circular breath, and also parts are written for overlapping players to play the same note.

 

Also, string can and do sustain long notes and envelopes can be programmed to emulate any type of "taper", along with automated volume rides.

 

- Learn theory

 

- Learn line writing

 

- listen to a lot of orchestral music

 

- examine scores

 

- learn instrument ranges

 

- observe instrument spacing and placement

 

- observe dynamics, durations, attacks

 

- use only one reverb- on the master

 

- drop-2 and drop-3 voicings are very helpful

 

Of course there's a LOT more to it, but this is a good start.

 

 

 

p.s. dont you just hate Oasys strings!

---

 

Use only ONE REVERB on the master! THANK YOU SPLEENCAGE!

Everyone else thinks that the "Concert Stage" has MANY reverbs going on! NOT TRUE!

Get your mix together, and then apply reverb to ALL-NOT "sections".....

 

PSS. The day that KORG gets "strings"-"right"- is the day we ALL *die*

[workstation M.I]

---

Cygnus64 wrote:

I also am very fond of that expansion board, but the sample library it comes from is even better. The samples are larger. Case in point, the string orchestra is fab imo. However, our resident in-house orchestral guru Cygnus prefers the Cakewalk samples if I recall correctly , and I highly value his opinion!

 

Thanks Paolo!

Indeed, I like the Cakewalk samples a lot. One reason is that they "blossom": on long notes, string players start with a small amount of vibrato and add more as the note unfolds, they also get louder. The Cakewalk samples do that.

 

I have the Roland orchestral card too. I like the shorter samples with a fast attack like percussion. The strings have a pleasing sound, I just don't find them very realistic. The sample libraries really have an advantage in that they have gigs of waveforms, not megs. It really matters with long notes.

 

Strings are all about attack, decay, and vibrato. They have to be sampled with vibrato or else it doesnt sound natural. the attack on a long note is more of a "swell". Again, it's not only volume but it's a change in color. The better sample sets have that.

---

Cakewalk samples were *good* but ONLY that....too synthy...