Dark lyrics, the tool of the lazy.

[thelonius74]

Kestral, you are proving swingset's points. You're asking for who has great lyrics in happy music, but the mere fact that you have to ask that question when it's obvious how many darker songs there are out there just goes to show that it's probably more of a challenge. And all you did was criticize the examples that he did give. It doesn't matter that it's not your kind of music. That's not really the point! Here's a couple more artists with great lyrics that are a little on the lighter side and actually *shudders* play in major keys sometimes. If you're not familiar, go to CDnow and listen to some soundclips. You may find something new that you like!

 

 

They Might Be Giants

John Prine.

Butch Walker

Steely Dan

Big Star

Owsley

Fleming & John

The Cars

The Kinks

[ewebacca]

"Pigs, they tend to wiggle when they walk

the infrastructure rots

and the owners hate the jocks

with their agents and their dates

 

if the signatures are checked

you'll just have to wait

 

and we're counting up the instants that we save

tired nation so depraved

from the cheap seats see us

wave to the camara

it took a giant ramrod to raze the demon settlement

 

but high-ho silver, ride

high-ho silver, ride

 

take another ride to see me home

listen to me! I'm on the stereo stereo

oh my baby baby baby baby babe

gave me malaria hysteria

 

what about the voice of geddy lee

how did it get so high?

i wonder if speaks like an ordinary guy?

( i know him and he does!)

 

and you're my fact- checkin' cuz

 

well focus on the quasar in the mist

the kaiser has a cyst

and i'm a blank want list

the qualms you have and if they stick

they will drown you in a crick

in the neck of the woods

that was populated by

tired nation on the fly

everybody knows advice

that was give out for free

lots of details to discern

lots of details

 

but high-ho silver ride

high-ho silver ride

takes another ride to make me

oh, get off the air

I'm on the stereo stereo

oh my baby baby baby baby babe

gave me malaria hysteria

 

"Stereo" by Pavement

[Welladjusted]

 

Originally posted by swingset Anonimity? What does being unknown have to do with writing dark lyrics. Is it your contention that writing good dark lyrics should make you less known? Strange, young man. Reread my posts - I didn't say there aren't good, intelligent dark lyrics, I only said it was much more difficult to be humourous or light hearted and do it successfully. Pink Floyd is a great band, lyrically, but they are also good at being very funny and ironic, which is much more of a skill.

 

 

by anonimity, I meant making dark lyrics without being like Staind, which is VERY direct and personal, where tool are a bit more, cerebral, I guess. less personal in some ways. maybe anonimity wasn't the best word.

[BryanMichael]

I agree that it is hard to write "clever" or happy lyrics....even about a dark subject.

I love Lyle Lovett's lyric writing-

It's often melancholy, self-depreciating, or sad-

but clever and almost....well, joyful-

But you know, the guy was an English major-he's well read-and he travels in musical teriitories that are less restricted by stylistic boundries than most of us.

 

Check out his lyrics for the soundtrack song of "Deadman Walking"

or some cuts on "Joshua Judges Ruth" which are really about death, mortality, and loss- I mean he starts one song out with

"I went to a funeral-and lord it made me happy-seein' all those people- I ain't seen, since the last time somebody died..."

 

 

Loss and reunion-dark, yet contemplative.

 

From a songwriting standpoint-this guy is awesome.

 

Peace,

Bryan

[electricmel]

Vic Chestnutt is a good one like that also -

 

And he's a Bulldawg!!!!!!!!

[eatsdrummachine]

>Well, I contend that dark, introspective lyrics >>are extremely immature, and easy; while funny, >>>flippant or clever upbeat lyrics are the true >>>>mark of a talented songwriter.

 

this is a prime example of why song writing forum can be so annoying to me. you go on to make some ok points- but there's so many holes in your statement. it's like saying ecclesiastes took less talent to write then song of songs because one ruins your buzz and the other makes you want to frollick around with a lover.

 

/johnny

 

ps- bob dylan, bryan wilson, stevie wonder, jeff buckley, john lennon----did they write anything introspective? your theory is sinking fast.

[electricmel]

 

ps- bob dillan, bryan wilson, stevie wonder, jeff buckley, john lennon----did they write anything introspective? your theory is sinking fast.

 

 

Bob "Dillan"? - ooh, that's bad.

 

That's REAL bad.

[Kachana]

 

Originally posted by swingset Reread my posts - I didn't say there aren't good, intelligent dark lyrics, I only said it was much more difficult to be humourous or light hearted and do it successfully. Pink Floyd is a great band, lyrically, but they are also good at being very funny and ironic, which is much more of a skill.

 

 

I can certainly see your point, you can write "dark" lyrics and have them accepted fairly easily by stringing together a list of depressing adjectives, you don't really have to say anything concrete, vagueness can seem dark. To be light hearted you can't rely on this method so easily. Perhaps that is at the crux of it?

 

That said, the above is only a statememnt of what is generally accepted. In other words, it says nothing about how deep or profound dark lyrics can be per se. I realise you appreciate this, but think it needs re-iterating.

 

I think that writing profound, dark insightful lyrics is just as hard as writing witty, sardonic pieces; I don't see anything inherent in wit that makes it more skilled an expresive medium than dark emotional lyrics.

 

Although it's not from a song, I think this poem by Keats gives a great example of a very profound and meaningful dark piece of writing. http://www.bartleby.com/126/48.html

 

 

She dwells with Beauty

[swingset]

CLARIFICATION

 

I DO NOT IN ANY WAY MEAN TO IMPLY THAT DARK THEMES ARE EASY. I DO NOT IN ANY WAY INTEND TO IMPLY THAT HUMOUR IS BETTER THAN SERIOUS OR DARK SUBJECT MATTER.

 

I only meant, if you sit down and purposely and willfully try to be witty, try to be lighthearted and at the same time write GOOD, TRULY GOOD music, you will find it MUCH harder to harness that than to let fly the dark emotions.

 

Try it and see guys. Why is there so much life in the Beatles music? It's for exactly this reason. Not only were they able to tap into it, they made it WORK. That's the hard part. I can write clever or funny, but to make it genuinely good music too is the killer. There are a MILLION bands that play down, and pull it off. Yet only a small handful of guys can be bright, funny and still write a good song.

 

This is all I am aiming at. I think alot of you are misunderstanding me or defending a music style which I'm not truly attacking.

[eatsdrummachine]

>Well, I contend that dark, introspective lyrics >>are extremely immature, and easy;while funny, >>>flippant or clever upbeat lyrics are the true >>>>mark of a talented songwriter.

 

later on:

 

IMPLY THAT HUMOUR IS BETTER THAN SERIOUS OR DARK >SUBJECT MATTER.

 

you are blatantly contradicting yourself. please sort your thoughts out before blowing hot air on this chat site. your original post came off wrong- just admit it and stop being such a stubborn ass.

 

/johnny

[WattsUrizen]

I think the problem with the 'dark depressive' lyrics is that they just aren't. It's just school boy whinging. If you want to really read about nihilistic despair, listen to the great Norwegian black metal masters Emperor. For me, if you want to engage your listener with the same level of pain, you need to construct lyrics with a deeper spiritual effect. Superficial whining has no weight.

 

However, I don't agree that 'catchy' lyrics are necessarily the mark of a great writer. In my opinion, great lyricists are those who can engage listeners with adventurous wordplay, interesting word selection, vividness of imagery, spiritual effect, meanings between the lines, and relation to the music. 'Catchy' might only be one or two of those. The entire emotional gamut can be encaptured within all of those criteria.

[taherbert]

What a bunch of Malarky! Just because they're a lot more crappy bands writing dark music than crappy bands making funny music doesn't mean one takes more talent than the other. It just means that one sells records and gets onto the radio and the other doesn't. I guarantee you in the 50's, with Do-wop all the rage, there were people saying, "Gosh, it's so easy to write a sappy love song about a girl you've never even met. It must take a lot more talent to write a depressing song like 'Last Kiss'". And what about the 80's? Cheerful crap city. Poison and Motley Crue had more songwriting talent than Nirvana or Pearl Jam? I'm going to have to disagree with that one. "Walk like an Egyptian" better than say "One" by U2? Not a chance.

 

Great song writers have versatility. They can make you laugh AND cry. In fact they can take any subject and make it come to life for you, that's why they're great. Greatness is, was, and always will be a rarity.

[electricmel]

 

Originally posted by taherbert What a bunch of Malarky! Just because they're a lot more crappy bands writing dark music than crappy bands making funny music doesn't mean one takes more talent than the other. It just means that one sells records and gets onto the radio and the other doesn't. I guarantee you in the 50's, with Do-wop all the rage, there were people saying, "Gosh, it's so easy to write a sappy love song about a girl you've never even met. It must take a lot more talent to write a depressing song like 'Last Kiss'". And what about the 80's? Cheerful crap city. Poison and Motley Crue had more songwriting talent than Nirvana or Pearl Jam? I'm going to have to disagree with that one. "Walk like an Egyptian" better than say "One" by U2? Not a chance. Great song writers have versatility. They can make you laugh AND cry. In fact they can take any subject and make it come to life for you, that's why they're great. Greatness is, was, and always will be a rarity.

 

 

Great Point!! I was thinking that myself - Dark, whiny lyrics are so "en vogue" now it's hard to escape them...but it looks like "a trend coming to the end". I always like it when they do that!

 

Once again - the key vocabulary word out of all this is...VERSATILITY

[ageofzeppelin]

To state obvious points:

 

Some people probably find happy music easier to write than down music.

 

It doesn't matter what comes easier to you.

 

Perhaps these writers of happy songs are also generally happy people, as opposed to generally sad ones.

 

Your theory is baseless and bunk.

 

Rash generalizations are never appropriate when trying to prove a point, particularly if said point is unfounded. See above.

[swingset]

Originally posted by eatsdrummachine flippant or clever upbeat lyrics are the true >>>>mark of a talented songwriter. later on: IMPLY THAT HUMOUR IS BETTER THAN SERIOUS OR DARK >SUBJECT MATTER. you are blatantly contradicting yourself. please sort your thoughts out before blowing hot air on this chat site. your original post came off wrong- just admit it and stop being such a stubborn ass. /johnny

 

The first instance I said lyrics (I differentiate between the lyrics and the theme of the song, but that's nitpicking, isn't it?). I feel dark lyrics are easy, and base. It's a adolescent urge to dwell on self-pity, downer themes and such. That's what I was stabbing at. It's pretty easy for a young person to come up with self-indulgent downer music, isn't it? (Think Fionna Apple) But, how many truly good, upbeat music comes from young people? Not much. That's a telling sign. Wit is a device of a clever and observant mind. That's hard to pull off for a great many people. It's easier to dwell on the negative, as it requires reaction rather than deliberate, constructed ideas. Again I say TRY IT YOUR FRICKIN' SELF. Write some clever stuff wrapped up in a truly good song and post it for us, it should be easier than writing dark, no?

 

And, I AM a stubborn ass when I'm right.

 

It's easy to prove me wrong. Write some songs with both down, dark or serious lyrics, then switch over and deliberately write something funny, glib or upbeat (that doesn't sound like Hanson). You'll see in short order why there are 2,000,000 bad downer metal bands floating around and about 2,000 power pop bands that can write genuinely good upbeat songs. It's FRICKIN HARD, that's why.

[swingset]

 

Originally posted by taherbert What a bunch of Malarky! Just because they're a lot more crappy bands writing dark music than crappy bands making funny music doesn't mean one takes more talent than the other. It just means that one sells records and gets onto the radio and the other doesn't. I guarantee you in the 50's, with Do-wop all the rage, there were people saying, "Gosh, it's so easy to write a sappy love song about a girl you've never even met. It must take a lot more talent to write a depressing song like 'Last Kiss'". And what about the 80's? Cheerful crap city. Poison and Motley Crue had more songwriting talent than Nirvana or Pearl Jam? I'm going to have to disagree with that one. "Walk like an Egyptian" better than say "One" by U2? Not a chance. Great song writers have versatility. They can make you laugh AND cry. In fact they can take any subject and make it come to life for you, that's why they're great. Greatness is, was, and always will be a rarity.

 

 

And to that, I half agree. I don't blanket contend ANYTHING, ok? I'm just saying that good music, orange to orange, it's harder to write clever than dark. Why is this so hard for you guys to understand? Ok, your example is perfect illustration of my point. "Walk Like An Egyptian" does not compare to "One". U2 offers a good song, The Bangles offer weak songwriting. I'm talking about a decent song, you offer MTV garbage (where would that song be without Suzanna Hoffs big brown eyes and a neato video?)

 

Now, compare U2's "One" to "The King Is Half Undressed" by The Jellyfish, or "Chemistry" by Semisonic, both of which are catchy and offer prosaic, clever lyrics. Is "One" a great song? Absolutely - but so are about 3/4 of the Beatles songs, and most of them "up" songs too. It's a relative argument, and you guys are taking it to a stupid, combative extreme. I'm saying, IN {censored}ING GENERAL, it's harder to write GOOD, upbeat music than it is to write downer lyrics. Are we clear?

[Wayrockin1]

I agree with you totally, swingset. I've been thinking that for a while and I'm glad to read that I'm not the only one that thinks so.

 

Poorly written 'dark' lyrics often suggest to me that the writer thinks that if there is enough angst, pain and borderline psychosis in their lyrics, that excuses them from form, rhyme, meter, or even the need to make a cohesive statement, image or story.

 

On the other hand, if a writer HAS a command of these tools and uses them to tell a dark story or paint a dark picture, that's when I take notice as a listener.

 

And yes, I agree that upbeat and clever lyrics are harder to write. I think that has to do with those kinds of songs having been more popular for the last 100 years or so, making it more difficult to be fresh and original.

[ageofzeppelin]

 

Originally posted by swingset It's easy to prove me wrong. Write some songs with both down, dark or serious lyrics, then switch over and deliberately write something funny, glib or upbeat (that doesn't sound like Hanson). You'll see in short order why there are 2,000,000 bad downer metal bands floating around and about 2,000 power pop bands that can write genuinely good upbeat songs. It's FRICKIN HARD, that's why.

 

 

anything written deliverately will come harder than just writing what comes naturally to the individual. If you don't feel it, it's hard to write it convincingly.

[thelonius74]

Taherbert, just as Kestral previously did has only proved swingset's point by trying to argue with him.

 

Is 'One' better than 'Walk Like An Egyptian'? Is Pearl Jam's writing better than Poison's for the most part? It's all opinion, but in my opinion I would have to say most definitely.

 

So do you see the pattern? The more upbeat songs are not as well written as the darker songs. Why? BECAUSE IT'S EASIER TO WRITE A DARK SONG!!!! THAT'S WHAT HE'S TRYING TO SAY!!

 

 

 

[taherbert]

 

Originally posted by swingset And to that, I half agree. I don't blanket contend ANYTHING, ok? I'm just saying that good music, orange to orange, it's harder to write clever than dark. Why is this so hard for you guys to understand? Ok, your example is perfect illustration of my point. "Walk Like An Egyptian" does not compare to "One". U2 offers a good song, The Bangles offer weak songwriting. I'm talking about a decent song, you offer MTV garbage (where would that song be without Suzanna Hoffs big brown eyes and a neato video?)

 

 

You accuse me of setting up a straw man, and yet you do the same thing. "Downer" lyrics are the 90's equivalent of "Girls, Girls, Girls." So nowadays gloomy is in fashion and there's a lot more people doing it badly than there were in the past. Back then it was the other way around. It doesn't make it any easier to write a good song, gloomy or otherwise. Furthermore, some forms of music just lend themselves better to certain types of subject material. I bet it's pretty difficult to write a Disco or Reggae song with depressing lyrics. Blues seems to be pretty adaptible to upbeat music with depressing lyrics, depressing music and lyrics, or feel good music and lyrics. Is it harder to write a good pop song than a good reggae song, a good blues song, a good country song, a good metal song, etc.? If you think so, I'd say that's a pretty arrogant opinion. Just because clever, prosaic lyrics and catchy music are the holy grail of indie rock doesn't mean that it's more difficult to assemble that type of music than other types of music.

 

 

Originally posted by swingset Now, compare U2's "One" to "The King Is Half Undressed" by The Jellyfish, or "Chemistry" by Semisonic, both of which are catchy and offer prosaic, clever lyrics. Is "One" a great song? Absolutely - but so are about 3/4 of the Beatles songs, and most of them "up" songs too. It's a relative argument, and you guys are taking it to a stupid, combative extreme. I'm saying, IN {censored}ING GENERAL, it's harder to write GOOD, upbeat music than it is to write downer lyrics. Are we clear?

 

 

We are totally clear. What you don't seem to understand is that "downer lyrics" used as a catch all term for songs that don't make you feel happy is a pretty stupid, combatitive extreme. I think all this Linkin Park, Staind nonsense is moronic and self-obsessed. I do not put them in the same category as Nirvana, Pearl Jam, U2, Tool, Rage Against the Machine, Wilco, Sparklehorse, Radiohead, etc. Saying the music that these bands make is somehow easier for them to do than it is for Ben Folds, The Jellyfish, Weezer, They Might Be Giants, and Semisonic to write their music is pretty stupid. Notice, too, that a lot of the bands I just mentioned write both upbeat and mellow songs (Ben Folds, Pearl Jam, U2, Wilco, Weezer).

 

So do funny songs take more talent to write than serious ones? Ask such songwriting talents as Adam Sandler and The Bloodhound Gang. Yes, it takes a lot of talent to write a catchy upbeat song that doesn't degenerate into mindless choruses, fart jokes, or Mmm Bops and yet still deals with a serious theme. It also takes a lot of talent to write songs that are dark and touching without being dismal overly-introspective powerchord-crunching scream-fests. It also takes talent to take a funny subject and make it dark and twisted. Listen to Mike Patton of Tomahawk chanting "This Beat Could Win Me a Grammy" in the song "POP 1" and try not to laugh despite the dark feel and thundering metal guitars.

[taherbert]

 

Originally posted by thelonius74 Taherbert, just as Kestral previously did has only proved swingset's point by trying to argue with him. Is 'One' better than 'Walk Like An Egyptian'? Is Pearl Jam's writing better than Poison's for the most part? It's all opinion, but in my opinion I would have to say most definitely. So do you see the pattern? The more upbeat songs are not as well written as the darker songs. Why? BECAUSE IT'S EASIER TO WRITE A DARK SONG!!!! THAT'S WHAT HE'S TRYING TO SAY!!

 

 

My point is that not hard to write cheerful congs or depressing songs, but it's hard to write a great song period. I guarantee you that tit-for-tat I could find a {censored}ty downer song for every {censored}ty pop song, and vice versa. I could also find every great cheerful song and match it with a great sad song and vice versa.

[Nza]

Originally posted by Kestral Beck - his lyrics make no sense. And does "Loser" really count as a "happy song" with good lyrics? You may have gotten the wrong idea about Beck because of the songs you've been exposed to...his lyrics might "make no sense" because they are quite surrealistic, but they definitely have meaning. For a happy Beck song with really good lyrics, there's "Tropicalia", "New Pollution", "Lord Only Knows", "Milk & Honey", "Sexx Laws", "Beercan", many, many more... Talking Heads - will check them out - they were a little before my time Before my time too, but well worth the trip back in time! "Remain in Light" or "Speaking In Tongues" are great places to start! Stevie Wonder - check, thanks for the tip, will put on Innervisions this weekend and give it a whirl [Mr. Burns]Eeexcelleeennt...[/Mr. Burns] Fishbone - not my bag Yeah, but I'm just saying they had some amazing lyrics that were also fun, "Everyday Sunshine", "Party at Ground Zero"... Ben Folds Five - I'm waiting on a CD from the library at the moment Good...they are a-frickin-mazing. Or, I guess, "were". Bjork - I don't see how you could list Bjork, could you name a happy song by her? Everything she does sounds so morose Let's see, happy songs..."It's Oh So Quiet", "Human Behavior", "Army of Me"...try her first two albums Fela Kuti - never heard of them That's too bad. {censored}in awesome music. African jazz/funk with songs that manage to be hilarious and scathingly powerful at the same time. James Brown - can you really say his lyrics are any good? No doubt he is the Godfather of Soul, but his lyrics are pretty trite. This isn't Otis Redding now. Yeah, I guess you got me there. Parliament-Funkadelic - a little before my time too - Bootsy is da man, but don't know enough to comment A little before my time, too (born in '78)...I recommend the album "Motor Booty Affair", some of the most deep-yet-fun lyrics ever. Wilco - never heard of them I'm sorry.

 

[thelonius74]

 

Originally posted by taherbert My point is that not hard to write cheerful congs or depressing songs, but it's hard to write a great song period. I guarantee you that tit-for-tat I could find a {censored}ty downer song for every {censored}ty pop song, and vice versa. I could also find every great cheerful song and match it with a great sad song and vice versa.

 

 

Excellent point. Let me try and better explain where I'm coming from.... a large number of people tend to automatically perceive dark or downer (I know you don't like that term) lyrics as automatically being deeper, or more thoughtful, etc. So people tend not to be as harsh on them, and more accepting of a tortured poetic soul expressing himself, instead of honestly saying that they're pretty bad lyrics.

 

And by that same token, it seems that a large number of people don't take a songwriter seriously enough if he's NOT writing darker themes...thereby making the assumption that he's making silly pop music with no thought or theme to it.

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by taherbert My point is that not hard to write cheerful congs or depressing songs, but it's hard to write a great song period. I guarantee you that tit-for-tat I could find a {censored}ty downer song for every {censored}ty pop song, and vice versa. I could also find every great cheerful song and match it with a great sad song and vice versa.

 

 

 

Originally posted by thelonius74 Excellent point. Let me try and better explain where I'm coming from.... a large number of people tend to automatically perceive dark or downer (I know you don't like that term) lyrics as automatically being deeper, or more thoughtful, etc. So people tend not to be as harsh on them, and more accepting of a tortured poetic soul expressing himself, instead of honestly saying that they're pretty bad lyrics. And by that same token, it seems that a large number of people don't take a songwriter seriously enough if he's NOT writing darker themes...thereby making the assumption that he's making silly pop music with no thought or theme to it.

 

 

I think these two posts have said all that needs to be said.

[swingset]

I concede - all you naysayers have changed my mind, and the very laws of art itself.

 

Drama is now easier than comedy.