Dark lyrics, the tool of the lazy.

[swingset]

I've been having a discussion with a friend who's into Tool, SOAD, etc.

 

He claims their lyrical content is "deep", "moving", "intelligent", blah blah.

 

Well, I contend that dark, introspective lyrics are extremely immature, and easy; while funny, flippant or clever upbeat lyrics are the true mark of a talented songwriter.

 

My theory on this is quite simple, actually. It's about supply/demand. There are literally thousands and thousands of dark, nu-metal or hardcore bands writing deep, down-note lyrics in every town. There are so many populating the radio and tv that I can't keep track of them. Yet, how many good, catchy bands are there that write clever, easy-on-the ears music? Not many. I think that it's very easy, almost automatic to write something that describes turmoil, dark or foreboding feelings or even despair. Yet, turn that around and make a catchy, sing-along song with some wit behind it - and you realize that it's an intangible, gift-from-god talent to be a songwriter like that (hence their scarcity). I know in my case, I can very easily emote and play grindy, wordy songs that are worthy of must nu-metal - and I can do it convincingly. Yet, I have an extremely difficult time writing genuinely good pop music, even with that being my intention and the base of my influences.

 

The Beatles aside, Cheap Trick, Fountains of Wayne, the Jellyfish all spring to mind as bands who write catchy, smart "pop" music. They use (or used) irony, imagery and glib humor to tell the same stories of unrequited love, longing or even personal tragedy as everyone else does, yet it wasn't slash-your-wrist downer music.

 

I certainly don't begrudge anyone their favorites, but I wholeheartidly believe that dark music is very easily conjured - but upbeat music remains the playground of the gifted.

 

Thoughts from anyone who's tried to write catchy music? Did you find it easier or harder than downer tunes?

[TheSandwich]

Excellent post. I find that writing catchy music is all about the hook. It's also awesome to find someone else that has heard of Fountains of Wayne.

[SomeGuyNamedRob]

I disagree. Intelligent lyrics are intelligent lyrics, and have nothing to do with the style in question. Clever use of imagery and methaphor makes good lyrics, regardless of their degree of humor.

 

And for every nu-metal clone writing bad "dark" lyrics, there are just as many bad pop bands writing bad "happy" lyrics.

 

Both Rush and TOOL can write very dark and introspective songs, but you'll have a hard time convincing people that the lyrics are "immature."

[electricmel]

Great Post -

 

I agree with your assesments. It is pretty easy to beat the downer/depressed lyrics to death. It seems like the world is full of angry young men these days.

 

Alot of that stuff "mushes" together.

 

It would be refreshing to hear some of those clever, flippant lyrics on the radio again, without the "slacker-trappings" of the day.

 

Some other bands that are doing this -

 

Fastball

Guided By Voices (anyone heard "Cheyenne" yet?)

Wilco

The Jayhawks

Chris Knox from The Tall Dwarfs

XTC

Owsley

 

I'd love to hear more of this on the radio - brightens up the day, ya' know.

 

P.s. Rush is dark??? I never thought so. Their new one is really impressive, also.

[SomeGuyNamedRob]

 

Originally posted by electricmel P.s. Rush is dark??? I never thought so. Their new one is really impressive, also.

 

 

I meant some of their stuff can be dark.

[electricmel]

Have you heard the new one?

 

Give it about 5 listens through and you'll start flipping out.

 

It might be their best since MPictures.

 

But I guess they always say that.

 

It's some serious rock though!!

[SomeGuyNamedRob]

 

Originally posted by electricmel Have you heard the new one? Give it about 5 listens through and you'll start flipping out. It might be their best since MPictures. But I guess they always say that. It's some serious rock though!!

 

 

I've had a very brief listen to it at the Virgin Mega store here in Chicago. I liked what I heard, but didn't really have a good solid listen to it. Yet.

[scubyfan]

i don't agree with you. dark as in dealing with death torture and nasty {censored} like that or dark as in depression paranoia the suckiness of life etc? (sorry my comma isnt working!)

 

Listen to "The Wall"...it's as dark as it can get...oh yeh and dark side...and anyone CAN'T just write that like you suggested. makin silly dark stuff like system of a down is very easy but when you get creative like floyd they are only one!

[b-lance]

 

Originally posted by swingset I've been having a discussion with a friend who's into Tool, He claims their lyrical content is "deep", "moving", "intelligent", blah blah. Well, I contend that dark, introspective lyrics are extremely immature, and easy;

 

Wait, you just called Maynard James Keenan immature and easy? Its a good thing that you find the meanings in the songs he writes so your point is valid, huh? No, I'm not saying theres a "happy" message, but MJK is anything but immature and easy. IMO

 

 

bert

[PuppetMaster]

 

Originally posted by SomeGuyNamedRob And for every nu-metal clone writing bad "dark" lyrics, there are just as many bad pop bands writing bad "happy" lyrics.

 

 

or not writing lyrics at all, in most cases. Also keep in mind that writing "catchy" lyrics and writin "good" lyrics are often two different things. The reason that the guys who write songs for Britney Spears and NSYNC don't get paid because their lyrics are good, they get paid because their lyrics are catchy. Two very different things. IMO, A good song can save bad lyrics, but good lyrics can't save a good song. The "pop" music that's popular now doesn't sell because the lyrics are intelligent, they're mindless, stupid, immature crap. It sells because the music is catchy and infectious, despite your opinion on it. On the other hand, lots of heavier bands write very intelligent, thoughtful lyrics, but nobody cares, because if they don't like the music, they're not gonna listen to it.

[swingset]

I wasn't ripping into Tool, but there's nothing extradordinary about Maynard's lyrics - they're pretty run-of-the mill for prog rock.

 

Listen to Grant Lee Buffalo's (or Grant Lee Phillips) lyrics, by contrast. Certainly a pensive band, but their lyrics are poetic and broad and even though they hit historical references and "big" themes, they still have a presentable, flowing style that sounds more like prose than rock lyrics.

 

Dark music can be gorgeous, and the lyrics and music can certainly dazzle - but my contention that it's MUCH, MUCH harder to write upbeat music/lyrics that works than it is to write down or dark music that works. If you doubt this, try it for yourself. Lord knows I have.

[electricmel]

I actually think some of Tool's lyrics are funny and sarcastic.

 

One of Maynard's many arrows is his wit and the fact that he doesn't take himself or Tool to seriously. I have read a few interviews with this guy and he is definetely on top of the game. He really doesn't come off as a dark or brooding person at all.

 

Pretty intelligent guy who likes the ROCK. The "Perfect Circle" album, while very abstract, is still pretty light in subject matter. Some actual love songs.

 

And also Pink Floyd was writing the introspective, confused, paranoid, searching stuff way before it was a "trend". Roger Waters created a very raw, semi-autobiography with The Wall. Pretty gutsy at the time. But those concept albums from the late 60's and 70's were all very intelligent and fused light AND dark moments.

 

I'd love to hear Staind, or System Of a Down (who are pretty hilarious themselves), Mudvayne, Disturbed, and the like - write a "Dirty Woman" or "Fat Old Sun" or "Wish You Were Here" to mix things up every once in a while...

 

Or an "Arnold Layne" for that matter...

 

Long live Syd!!!

 

Back to the point - It's the versatility thats missing.

 

And the same old thing - crunchy-munchy guitars, half spoken - half screamed lyrics, themes of how the world/government/mom/girlfriend/television/puppy are all horrible conceptions, and the words; jaded/{censored}ed-up/control/destroy/low/reality/esteem/... have become TIRED AS HELL!!

[swingset]

Exactly my point, it's EASY to gripe, it's easy to write cathartic piss and moan stuff - cause it's universal and doesn't require anything but emotion, which like it or not, we all have. What some of us lack, however is a sense of humor.

 

To come up with a clever, funny or uplifting lyric or tune is difficult. It's like that with movies, any actor can tell you that. How many good serious actors and actresses are there? Tons. But, how many great comedic actors are there? Not that many, and most are only funny to a niche crowd. A hundred guys have done Shakespeare convincingly, but how many people could have done "The Mask" but Jim Carrey? One, maybe two guys and probabaly not as well. That's what it is to be gifted.

 

People scoff at the lighthearted stuff, but those who have done both serious and light writing know which is the challenge and which isn't.

[thelonius74]

I agree swingset. Everyone writes dark lyrics. It's not a challenge, I think some people are misunderstanding, but of course not all happy lyrics are good and not all dark lyrics are bad, but I think it requires FAR more talent to write something that is in a catchier vain than a darker one. I kinda feel like an outsider because of it sometimes. People just assume that when they write it has to be dark.

 

AND....I'm so glad you mentioned Jellyfish....I thought I was their only fan!!!!!!!! My band does one of their songs even! Spilt Milk is pure powerpop genius!

 

Hey I gotta guy you really need to check out. His name is Butch Walker..he used to sing/play/write for Marvelous 3 (the guys that sang Freak of the Week). This guy is one of my favorite lyricists and his lyrics are to a tee the kind of thing you're talking about. He's got a solo record coming out very soon. He hasn't made it big yet on his own, but I have a feeling he will, and he's already written a big hit song for SR-71 and another song for Lit. Not to mention doing some producing with those guys.

[Kestral]

I think in the end, you can only write how you feel. I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm in a great mood, I don't feel like writing. I feel like chillin' out with my friends and enjoying life. Whereas I find writing helps me sort of things when they're not going well.

[Nza]

Just don't 'try' to write any kinda lyrics in particular, just write the words how they sound like they should appear in the song, try to match the mood of the words to the mood of the music.

 

And remember, just because the lyrics aren't "dark" doesn't make them trite: just listen to some Fela Kuti, you'll see that lyrics can be funny and powerful at the same time.

[Brian Marshall]

 

Originally posted by swingset Exactly my point, it's EASY to gripe, it's easy to write cathartic piss and moan stuff - cause it's universal and doesn't require anything but emotion, which like it or not, we all have. What some of us lack, however is a sense of humor. To come up with a clever, funny or uplifting lyric or tune is difficult. It's like that with movies, any actor can tell you that. How many good serious actors and actresses are there? Tons. But, how many great comedic actors are there? Not that many, and most are only funny to a niche crowd. A hundred guys have done Shakespeare convincingly, but how many people could have done "The Mask" but Jim Carrey? One, maybe two guys and probabaly not as well. That's what it is to be gifted. People scoff at the lighthearted stuff, but those who have done both serious and light writing know which is the challenge and which isn't.

 

 

oK SO NOW YOU ARE COMPARING THE MASK TO SHAKSPERE. mAYBE YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE SUN TOO LONG. I THINK THAT SOME PEOPLE PROBALBY HAVE A MUCH EASIER TIME COMING UP WITH UP BEAT LYRICS, I KNOW I DO. i WRITE DARKER STUFF TOO, BUT FIND MYSELF TOSSING A MUCH HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF IT.

 

bRIAN

[drummerjoe]

I wholehartedly agree... tools lyrics arent that amazing at all either.

[swingset]

Originally posted by Brian Marshall oK SO NOW YOU ARE COMPARING THE MASK TO SHAKSPERE. mAYBE YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE SUN TOO LONG. I THINK THAT SOME PEOPLE PROBALBY HAVE A MUCH EASIER TIME COMING UP WITH UP BEAT LYRICS, I KNOW I DO. i WRITE DARKER STUFF TOO, BUT FIND MYSELF TOSSING A MUCH HIGHER PERCENTAGE OF IT. bRIAN

 

I'd take your barbs more seriously if you could master that neat little key right next to your left pinky.

[Welladjusted]

I disagree. it takes skill to write dark lyrics and still have some level of anonimity, diversity or intelligence. Tool and Pink Floyd probably do dark music the best. I consider System of a Down more quirky than dark.

[swingset]

 

Originally posted by ScottWMF I disagree. it takes skill to write dark lyrics and still have some level of anonimity, diversity or intelligence.

 

 

Anonimity? What does being unknown have to do with writing dark lyrics. Is it your contention that writing good dark lyrics should make you less known? Strange, young man.

 

Reread my posts - I didn't say there aren't good, intelligent dark lyrics, I only said it was much more difficult to be humourous or light hearted and do it successfully. Pink Floyd is a great band, lyrically, but they are also good at being very funny and ironic, which is much more of a skill.

[Kestral]

Alright, how about we name some more examples of these brilliant bands that supposedly write better happy music? I'm not a fan of Cheap Trick or Fountains of Wayne. As well, many of the Beatles' songs have a dark edge to them, so how about naming some specific Beatles songs? I've given it some thought and I can't think of any "happy" songs in particular that stand out to me at the moment. So perhaps if we can name some forcomparison, it would help.

 

As for me, most of the bands I listened to growing up (especially Depeche Mode, the Doors, GnR) were dark. Growing up is not easy, it isn't all Incense and Peppermints, perhaps that's why there are more dark lyrics.

 

Who would want to hear a song here that says, "I'm popular, have a beautiful girlfriend and I'm Captain of the football team"?? People would rather write about and listen to themes that are closer to "I like this girl who likes jerks with IROCs but I'm just a teenage dirtbag baby, listen to Iron Maiden maybe".

[Nza]

 

Originally posted by Kestral Alright, how about we name some more examples of these brilliant bands that supposedly write better happy music?

 

 

(I do think this thread was about lyrics, and not "music", but anyway...)

 

Alright, here's some easy ones:

 

Beck

Talking Heads

Stevie Wonder

Fishbone

Ben Folds Five

Bjork

Fela Kuti

James Brown

Parliament-Funkadelic

Wilco

 

{By the way, it should be noted that these groups/artists write a great deal of fun, feel good songs that still have very deep lyrics, yet, also write songs that have more "dark" leaning lyrics. I think it's much more healthy as a musician/band to be open to writing songs that express a wide range of emotions. As much as I love Tool or Nine Inch Nails...try to imagine either of those bands ever having a song that was 'fun' to listen to.}

[Kestral]

Beck - his lyrics make no sense. And does "Loser" really count as a "happy song" with good lyrics?

 

Talking Heads - will check them out - they were a little before my time

 

Stevie Wonder - check, thanks for the tip, will put on Innervisions this weekend and give it a whirl

 

Fishbone - not my bag

 

Ben Folds Five - I'm waiting on a CD from the library at the moment

 

Bjork - I don't see how you could list Bjork, could you name a happy song by her? Everything she does sounds so morose

 

Fela Kuti - never heard of them

 

James Brown - can you really say his lyrics are any good? No doubt he is the Godfather of Soul, but his lyrics are pretty trite. This isn't Otis Redding now.

 

Parliament-Funkadelic - a little before my time too - Bootsy is da man, but don't know enough to comment

 

Wilco - never heard of them

 

---

 

I was listening to David Bowie (Heroes) this morning, and I suppose he would qualify, as would U2, but even then, they always have that dark edge to them. It's the Eno connection.

[electricmel]

Kestral -

 

You can't think of any positive/happy/quirky/fun Beatles songs????!!!!!?????

 

Here's a quick twenty -

 

She Loves You

Eight Days A Week

Ticket To RIde

Octopuss' Garden

Got To Get You Into My Life

Baby, You Can Drive My Car

Michelle

I Am The Walrus

Lovely Rita

Being For The Benefit of Mr. Kite

Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band

With A Little Help From My Friends

Blackbird

Hello,Goodbye

Penny Lane

Paperback Writer

Back In The USSR

And Your Bird Can Sing

When I'm Sixty-Four

She Came in Through The Bathroom Window

Let It Be

Get Back

Hey Jude

Maxwell's Silver Hammer...

 

All of them GEMS!!!!!!!!!!

 

They did write many dark ones...but the point is VERSATILITY!!!

Which they were brilliant with.