Members jeffoest Posted April 15, 2003 Members Share Posted April 15, 2003 Ok - I've been meaning to post a question about this since the beginning of the year but keep forgetting. We all bad-mouth cliche lyrics, but sometimes is it ok, or EVEN good or appropriate? For example, last Christmas I wrote a little jazzy Christmas 'standard' filled with nothing original and lots of cliches: It Doesn't Feel Like Christmas (Without You) - MP3 [4:29] Despite its somewhat cliched lyrics, doggone it, I STILL like this song (ok, maybe not the voice so much.....!) and really kind of think the song would sound more dorky with clever or more thought out metaphors. I am currently working on another bluesy/jazzy NorahJones-ish thing now and am starting the lyrics process and pondering the use of cliche to some degree or start really fresh.... What do you guys think? Are there song types where cliches tend to fit better or am I just rationalizing in an attempt to be lazy?!! :-) Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted April 16, 2003 Members Share Posted April 16, 2003 Sometimes I don' think we have a clear idea of what "cliche" is as songwriters. Saying "I love you" is not a cliche.a cliche is more like an overused phrase or metaphor that has lost it's true potency in my opinion..like "take these chains off of my heart"..I mean, at one time, that image may have been powerful, but now it's a cliche. or "I can see it your eyes" may be a cliche phrase, but in the context of a story or lyric it can probably work fine. It's a fine line- alot of good songs have somewhat cliched themes or phrases, but the performance can make them seem less so by infusing them with true emotion (well, if you believe it's true emotion when you hear it. It's a matter of interpretation) A great book on lyrics is Pat Pattisons "Writing Better Lyrics"it is the best book I've read on the subject and addresses all the concerns and provides exercises to help you move past cliches, etc. It's fun too. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeffoest Posted April 16, 2003 Author Members Share Posted April 16, 2003 LOL - I'm reading Pattisson's book right now!! And that's the point I'm trying to make (and question) on cliches that he doesn't addres. The whole point of avoiding cliches is because, as you mention, true cliches have lost their potency over time - what was once a fresh exciting way to look at a topic is now so used that it doesn't invoke freshness anymore. But there lies the rub I wonder. Because in these standards like my song, I don't really WANT that intense new feeling - it's a Christmas song that it intentionally light. And maybe that's why the cliches work (in my mind, anyways)?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted April 16, 2003 Members Share Posted April 16, 2003 FWIW your song is nice-but there are a few turns of phrase that I think could be better.Like "the house is decked in green and red, but how come I feel so blue?" You have the right idea with the colors- but why ask a question?!?It's weak (IMO)- you should just state "the house is decked in green and red but all I feel is blue" simple- strong-classic There were only two other lines that I thought could be more concise, but I'll have to listen again-Just my opinion. I can post them if you like- or I'll keep my big trap shut. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeffoest Posted April 16, 2003 Author Members Share Posted April 16, 2003 Hey Bryan, Thanks! I like your addition/modification - kind of makes the color 'theme' of the phrase a bit stronger. If you have any other recommedations - definitely throw them my way - I'm at the stage musically where I'm just a sponge for other ideas for improvements! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeffoest Posted April 20, 2003 Author Members Share Posted April 20, 2003 Any other thoughts on this topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted April 20, 2003 Members Share Posted April 20, 2003 Hey Jeff- I haven't sat down with your tune yet- I'll post a couple of other suggestions- As usual, you can take 'em or leave 'em! B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mickey Ireland Posted April 22, 2003 Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 If you want to hear a good example of what to avoid, listen to anything written by Sammy Hagar. Dreams and Right Now come to mind. *From Right Now*Miss the beat, you lose the rhythm, And nothing falls into place, no Only missed by a fraction, Slipped a little off your pace, oh, The more things you get, the more you want, Just trade in one for the other, Workin so hard, to make it easier, whoa, Got to turn, c'mon turn this thing around *From Dreams*Run, run, run, away Like a train runnin off the track The truth gets left behind And falls between the cracks Standing on broken dreams But never losing sight Spread your wings I like the songs, but if I listen too close it hurts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeffoest Posted April 22, 2003 Author Members Share Posted April 22, 2003 A lot of cliche's there, you're right and not much to read. BUT and maybe this is a case. Maybe the cliches work here because the listener is not looking for much complexity or to think about it too much - hey it's rock'n'roll right? Also because they are cliche's we instantly understand the references and because they are overused - they meaning is not very intense. Which is OK for a song like this, isn't it? The whole cliche thing confuses me. People are SO critical of them yet it just seems to me that are times and places for them where they work. Am I completely goofed up? If I could make a general statement, it seems like cliche's don't work too bad on standards / jazzy type of songs or straight ahead rock and roll or mainstream pop but would really be out of place in some very progressive stuff..... I guess the question is - do the lyrics always have to be intense (as non cliche metaphors can do to a lyric)? Allright, I'll just shut up and write songs now :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Atarioblivion Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 It's a fine line- alot of good songs have somewhat cliched themes or phrases, but the performance can make them seem less so by infusing them with true emotion (well, if you believe it's true emotion when you hear it. It's a matter of interpretation) I think I'm gonna ask you an autograph:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bulldawgu812 Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 just go with what you like. i agree cliches can sound good in some stuff... i would just try to forget all rules or whatever, and just write what sounds good to you. if you like it, go for it.. u dont need opinions from people over the internet.. just go for it, write what you think sounds good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jason Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 speaking of songwriting cliches-If I hear ONE more song on the radio that includes the following words,I will turn it off and BLOW IT UP w/some firweorks (maybe a nice "customized" air bomb;) ) -heart -broken -why do we have to be "just friends" -love -with you etc...etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members magnetic Posted April 23, 2003 Members Share Posted April 23, 2003 if you want to hear the most cliche riddle albumn of all time. Frou Frou = ??Every Single Line in a very worn and tatered phrase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpacedCowboy Posted April 25, 2003 Members Share Posted April 25, 2003 Originally posted by jason speaking of songwriting cliches-If I hear ONE more song on the radio that includes the following words,I will turn it off and BLOW IT UP w/some firweorks (maybe a nice "customized" air bomb;) ) -heart -broken -why do we have to be "just friends" -love -with you etc...etc... Hey Jason, if you include the rhyming of "fire" and "desire" (in either verse, bridge or chorus, it doesn't matter) not only will I join you in your quest, I'll bring the fireworks (maybe even some napalm). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jason Posted April 27, 2003 Members Share Posted April 27, 2003 I was just at a local musicians thing yesterday.someone had a song with the "fire/desire" line.damn amatuers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Boy Named Drew Posted April 28, 2003 Members Share Posted April 28, 2003 Originally posted by jason speaking of songwriting cliches-If I hear ONE more song on the radio that includes the following words,I will turn it off and BLOW IT UP w/some firweorks (maybe a nice "customized" air bomb;) ) -heart -broken -why do we have to be "just friends" -love -with you etc...etc... If I hear another "fly away" song, I am going to break out the AK on Clearchannel. Just bull{censored} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted April 30, 2003 Members Share Posted April 30, 2003 cliches, or things that sound like they should be cliches seem to make great hooks... Pop songs usually need at least one cliche in them country is nothing but a bunch of cliches strung together... hip hop is almost as bad. It's almost funny that the word "nigga" is a cliche now, and i hear 16 year old sububanites using it like it was "dude" or "man" conversation between two white kids.... kid 1 "what up nigga" kid 2 "{censored} nigga, wudupwidu" kid 1 "dis nigga jus bin chillin' wid his bieeatch" kid 2 "nigga, dat girl got you trippin'" do i need to go on.... I'd like to drop these kids off in the neighborhood I used to live in and see if they get out alive... ooops didn mean to rant. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bigfun Posted May 2, 2003 Members Share Posted May 2, 2003 Edited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted May 3, 2003 Members Share Posted May 3, 2003 Originally posted by Bigfun "Love"(as in boy/girl love) is the number one cliche word, or more properly, "theme" in music, which is not to critisize it too severely due to it's obvious emotional impact on people. In rock and roll lyrics, however, the endless use of the word "Baby" drives me nuts. I now believe that, in the past, songwriters actually inserted the word because they thought it wouldn't sound like rock and roll if they DIDN'T use it ten or fifteen times throughout the song. "Baby"...is the king of cliche song words. Possibly more relevant to this topic are cliche phrases rather than single words. "The snow fell silently down" sort of things. and finally there are complete cliche themes whereas the entire concept of the song itself is cliche, such as the enduring "corrupt politicians" and "Generals comfortably behind the lines" and the ever-popular: "Rich man screwing the poor man". Of course, there really are corrupt politicians and generals usually do conduct a war from behind the lines, and yes, Virginia, by definition if nothing else, rich people have more money than poor people. And.........your point is? I'd rather write about my new Poulon "pro" self-propelled lawn mower than those things.....which I may do, come to think about it (Ooops! another cliche). LOL! When I was 17 and first writing songs back in 1987 I took an oath NEVER to use the word "Baby" in a song for that very reason! But of course fast forward to 2003 and I actually have ONE song (just one) that has the word "Baby" in it... I think Bono made it acceptable at some point on Achtung Baby ..? I don't know-....but it found it's way into one of my songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bbsmile Posted May 3, 2003 Members Share Posted May 3, 2003 I dont know. If your writing a song about love I dont see why you cant say I love you. I guess there is just a wrong and a right way to do it. And I for one do not want to get into what I feel is the right way since my way is merely my opinion. Anything can be done, if the person who is writing the lyrics is honest then that will come across. If not, we'll just think its sentimental mediocre crap. i love you though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bigfun Posted May 4, 2003 Members Share Posted May 4, 2003 Yes, it's a bit of a conundrum if you're smitten by love and you need to express yourself by writing a song about it. Obviously, you'll have to refer to it, and risk commiting "cliche lyric", unless of course, you can string a bunch of hazy metaphors together, in which case, you may be taken for a genius instead of just another lovesick putz. Just for laughs, we should make a list of pop and rock songs that have "Baby" in them. "Love" is no doubt, the single most popularly expressed emotion in music, and always has been and always will be, so the cliches are statistically unavoidable. There's only so many comprehensible ways to say "I love you" before you have to start repeating yourself. But I just wish they (whoever they are) would stop saying "Baby .....I love you" so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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