Members pontiusplaymate Posted March 13, 2006 Members Share Posted March 13, 2006 anybody who says that, as a rule, cliches should be avoided in songwriting is full of crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members orourke Posted March 13, 2006 Members Share Posted March 13, 2006 Hi, I'm full of crap. And you're trolling again. But to get to the subject at hand; I think that cliches are fine as long as one doesn't have to rely on them too much. I mean we're all part of various traditions, and we'll use those traditions as a framework for what we create, but I try to avoid using old cliches when I can. For example, if you are going to rhyme "fire" with "desire" or "moon' with "June" it had better be in a pretty clever context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ToxicBass Posted March 13, 2006 Members Share Posted March 13, 2006 Originally posted by pontiusplaymate anybody who says that, as a rule, cliches should be avoided in songwriting is full of crap. That's so cliche:rolleyes: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=481684 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bluesway Posted March 13, 2006 Members Share Posted March 13, 2006 it depends on who you're writing for. i hate cliches. i use them for those people who recognize what they are almost as a "joke" and i always use them next to an original or very literal and often down to earth line. but if you want to write for the mainstream, cliches often hit that lowest common denominator pretty well, no? you wouldn't see leonard cohen writing a love song involving hearts and roses and if he did, there's probably a very specific reason he chose to use them, but there's a good chance any love song on the billboard top 40 with be WITHOUT either of those piece of {censored} images. (especially in country music, the cliche-lover's fave!) (that oughta set them country fans off on me!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted March 13, 2006 Members Share Posted March 13, 2006 How about some great examples of cliches in songs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pontiusplaymate Posted March 13, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 13, 2006 Originally posted by Chicken Monkey How about some great examples of cliches in songs? chicken monkey! I've heard very good things about you. I started thinking about cliches listening to Dylan. Dylan is the master of the cliche and stock phrase...If you really start looking at songs that most folks agree are "great songs" there are cliches everywhere doing important work. What can cliches do? Here are three ways that I've thought of that cliches can be useful: 1. they are efficient indicators of a message or mood...even if they aren't evocative, they can communicate their meaning easily, which allows a song writer to develop complex ideas/passages around them that can be processed on the fly (as one listens) 2. they create expectation. cliches are cliches because we know what they mean...they create expectation about what is to follow...if this expectation is violated or a cliche is turned on its head...the cliche itself can become striking and new, and often the violation of expectation in this way can serve to evoke a mood or emotional response. 3. they simplify things and give the listener an easy point of entry into songs that might otherwise seem foreign or inaccessible. I'm sure there are other ways cliches are usefull...of course cliches are frequently awful, trite and stupid. but just the same, great pop music in all genres would not be what it is if cliches were actually shunned as often as most folks seem to think they should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tom A Posted March 13, 2006 Members Share Posted March 13, 2006 Originally posted by pontiusplaymate What can cliches do? Here are three ways that I've thought of that cliches can be useful:1. they are efficient indicators of a message or mood...even if they aren't evocative, they can communicate their meaning easily, which allows a song writer to develop complex ideas/passages around them that can be processed on the fly (as one listens)2. they create expectation. cliches are cliches because we know what they mean...they create expectation about what is to follow...if this expectation is violated or a cliche is turned on its head...the cliche itself can become striking and new, and often the violation of expectation in this way can serve to evoke a mood or emotional response.3. they simplify things and give the listener an easy point of entry into songs that might otherwise seem foreign or inaccessible. Good summary. I might also add a cliched phrase could also be used playfully, where you're relying on the word sounds in a rhythmic context, for instance. What you're really saying, in the spirit of the thread: The cliche should just be the pickle on the burger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pontiusplaymate Posted March 13, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 13, 2006 Originally posted by Tom A Good summary. I might also add a cliched phrase could also be used playfully, where you're relying on the word sounds in a rhythmic context, for instance. What you're really saying, in the spirit of the thread: The cliche should just be the pickle on the burger. good call...that is an important one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Floophead3 Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 I hate pickles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by pontiusplaymate 2. they create expectation. cliches are cliches because we know what they mean...they create expectation about what is to follow...if this expectation is violated or a cliche is turned on its head...the cliche itself can become striking and new, and often the violation of expectation in this way can serve to evoke a mood or emotional response. I don't think this really counts as cliche. You can certainly manipulate cliches to lyrical advantage, but then it's not really a cliche anymore. Now that you've mentioned Dylan, I had to run through his greatest hits to come up with an example of a cliche. "You'd better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone" has a cliche (sink like a stone), and I guess that I ave never felt strongly for or against the lyrical merit of the second half of that phrase. It is, upon reflection, lazy, but the song doesn't suffer. On the other hand, there is a song on Help, I think it's called "When I Get Home", in which John Lennon claims/threatens that he will "love you til the cows come home." That is so mucus-curdlingly cliche that I want to get a bus ticket to New York, run to Central Park, and take a dump in Strawberry Fields. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you're as good as Dylan, or at least better than Lennon, then I will not violate your memorial if you use cliches. Otherwise, take note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pontiusplaymate Posted March 14, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by Chicken Monkey I don't think this really counts as cliche. You can certainly manipulate cliches to lyrical advantage, but then it's not really a cliche anymore. Now that you've mentioned Dylan, I had to run through his greatest hits to come up with an example of a cliche. "You'd better start swimming or you'll sink like a stone" has a cliche (sink like a stone), and I guess that I ave never felt strongly for or against the lyrical merit of the second half of that phrase. It is, upon reflection, lazy, but the song doesn't suffer. On the other hand, there is a song on Help, I think it's called "When I Get Home", in which John Lennon claims/threatens that he will "love you til the cows come home." That is so mucus-curdlingly cliche that I want to get a bus ticket to New York, run to Central Park, and take a dump in Strawberry Fields. I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you're as good as Dylan, or at least better than Lennon, then I will not violate your memorial if you use cliches.Otherwise, take note. If I manage to find some significant time in the near future, I think it'd be fun to work through a couple actual songs and explore the ways cliches are used to good and bad effect. Also, I think I might be construing cliche a bit more broadly than you...so this might become a source of contention between us, or it might help us to come to some agreement. as for your criticism of point 2:While I think in the kind of context point 2 describes, the cliche might in a sense be born anew...the effect only works because the cliche carries with it an expectation. Perhaps what you want to say is that the use of the cliche isn't cliche...but I still contend that this kind of effect plays upon the our expectation about what a particular cliche is supposed to mean or how it is supposed to be used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members janusmanus Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 I think throughout the thread the term cliche has developed into something broader than the term lexically means, which is actually a reflection of what you intend it to mean in lyrics.you have done something similar here.Now a cliche has turned into a very fertile seed and is no more older or newer than any other linguistic form available in language.This much is really fine but when it comes to total identification, a cliche is no better than an imbodied cliche, a person with no personal language and accordingly existance: a replica, and boring as much. As for the expectation creating effect, all ? can say they normally do not arouse anything, they sooth, that is they create relaxation.which is something I loath in any art form.in this case its a sanctuary for the exhausted and lazy mind searching for rutine. Actually ? am not against the use of any linguaistic resource in lyrics but when it comes to cliches, ? hope that they only exist for refutation. otherwise its an capsuled pill, a fake promise for those who look for a stand still picture in front of them. as much as idiotic it may be, I'll quote one of my message post scripts here:" a friend in heat is a friend in need".this may be the most non-creative attempt, but it very well exemplifies what ? expect in the use of cliches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pontiusplaymate Posted March 14, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 janusmanus...I just want to clarify one point, as I agree with much of what you say. it's my contention that because cliche writing makes the mind lazy...because it's meaning is so transparant, that the violation of expectation we have about how it should be/is typically used can cause a strong response. kinda like...yeah, yeah, yeah, I heard all this before....WHAT!!?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members janusmanus Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 your formula is like antidote preparation.the poison is thus nullified right? and the refutation complete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members percyexpat Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 something can be 'cliche' without involving what we may strictly call a cliche, no? a cliche isnt cliche as long as its not sorta tacky...agh! this is giving me a headache, hehe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by pontiusplaymate I think I might be construing cliche a bit more broadly than you...so this might become a source of contention between us, or it might help us to come to some agreement. Agreed. I was trying to write a song titled "Life is a Highway (And I'm All Thumbs)" a few years ago. That's two cliches for the price of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ToxicBass Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Talk about cliche, trite INXS or Marty Casey & the Lovehammers Trees It'll be you and me up in the treesAnd the forest will give us the answerIt'll be you and I up in the skyIt's a combination for disaster One of the dumbest songs I've ever heard. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=481684 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BryanMichael Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by ToxicBass Talk about cliche, trite INXS or Marty Casey & the LovehammersTreesIt'll be you and me up in the treesAnd the forest will give us the answerIt'll be you and I up in the skyIt's a combination for disasterOne of the dumbest songs I've ever heard.http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=481684 Dumb?yep.Trite?yep.Cliche? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ToxicBass Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by BryanMichael Dumb? yep. Trite? yep. Cliche? No. I guess I got carried away. How ya doin' Bryan? BTW "that CD" is almost finished. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=481684 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hugo H Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 I was curious so I searched and found this recent post on soundclick:The Cliche Songhttp://www.soundclick.com/bands/songinfo.cfm?bandid=116284&songID=2886696 I won't critique it but the music isn't quite as cliched as the words. Almost, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ToxicBass Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Intentional clicheism. I think that song about covers it. http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=481684 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jabney Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Chicken Monkey wrote, "I was trying to write a song titled "Life is a Highway (And I'm All Thumbs)" a few years ago. That's two cliches for the price of one." But by combining the two, you actually redeemed both cliches, and I think, rather cleverly. What songwriters probably shouldn't do is to use a naked cliche; that is, to use a cliche as if it were simply a long or hyphenated word. It's best to twist a cliche or call attention to it, as Chicken Monkey did in the above quoted twofer. best, john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ToxicBass Posted March 15, 2006 Members Share Posted March 15, 2006 John Braheny:So it's more important to avoid clich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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